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Getting Pores Filled on Mahogany ---- ??
Author
Post
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3594
TIM METCALF --
Okay, I give up. I spent the entire weekend trying to get a good filling of pores using Target HSF5100 pore filler on African Mahogany. After ten applications on one test piece, and five on another test piece, the small pores are still not filled.

In another thread, just above a BEAUTIFUL finish on a mahogany back/sides, you wrote:

"-pore filler on raw wood, I use System 3 silica thickener to give it a little more body on really porous woods. Apply with brush, scrape of in about 3 minutes, sand when dry, repeat if needed."

That's exactly what I've done, including with and w/out the System 3 Silica, and I cannot get the pores filled. Can you give me any more details or tips?

I do this:
1) raw mahogany: Applied HSF5100 with foam brush, scraped off at 45º angle after 3 minutes -- did with and without silica.
2) Sanded after three hours with 220 R/O sander.
Repeated, repeated, repeated ... no luck.

Is this like fishing? I hope not, because I've never been able to catch any!

Anyone else, feel free to jump in.

--Bill

Nov 16, 09 | 4:38 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
I have tried the 5100 with silica -- I actually make it into a paste about the thickness of Vasoline petroleum jelly. Two coats worked pretty/very good. However, Deft lacquer sanding sealer with the Silica works better and as matter of fact is now my method of choice and the one that will appear with the KMG Kit instruction set. The Deft sands off much easier than the 5100 -less paper clog.

I am just guessing but I believe in the water borne material the silca just stay suspended in the solution. But in the solvent based Deft it actually desolves, combines or re-formulates? Plus --- the water borne material does not burn-into the previous coat and so it and the silica just lays on the surface --- the sanding operation just chips it off. Without the extra tack (burn-in) created by the solvents each coat of the water base product is still subject to chip off/out of the pores --- on the other hand the solvent based lacquer desolves the previous layer to build and form a unified layer.

Also, even with the Deft system it takes two addiitonal coats of plain sanding seal to fill the pin holes ---- pore filling is indeed a chore!

And yes, I way prefer the clear filler over Por O Pac -- only took thirty years to change my view!

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est 1978

Nov 16, 09 | 5:12 pm
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
Bill,
I would think you have already tried this, but why not just use epoxy. That is what I used on #2 and it worked like a champ. In fact, it is "TOO" easy to use. Just the cheap, get it at Walmart type.

Kevin

Nov 16, 09 | 6:20 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Bill,

I had given up on HSF, but then after rereading Tim's posting I decided to try the silica thing as I still had some HSF sitting around. First time out I only added enough silica to slightly thicken the filler. Worked about as good as having added nothing! I eventually added enough to get a paste or perhaps similar to Ken's petroleum jelly. This worked quite well, but I found it worked best if I worked it into the pores, let it set two or three minutes, then used my squeegee to keep working it into the pores while it further flashed. This ended up leaving a slight film on the surface but gave the best fill. I agree with Ken, though, Target's HSF is a pain to sand.

Ken

Nov 16, 09 | 7:11 pm
Herman

Total Topics: 38
Total Posts: 480
Bill,

Cannot tell you anything about the Target stuff. And you know my story with Stewmac waterbase filler is about the same as yours now. My last neck has the "plaster" homemade filling that Robbie O'Brien uses. 2 coats worked fine.
One minor thing: I used some dies that stained the wood too. So the mahogany is less red than preferred. Make tests on scraps.

Herman

Nov 16, 09 | 11:34 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
The solvents in nitro lacquer, toluene, xylene etc. are very aggressive and will chemically melt just about any plastic or cured finishing product. (burn brain cells too!) So using epoxy, Wal-Mart or the boat stuff as filler under nitro – MAY NOT lead to problems down the road. However, the water borne products are not able to chemically etch the previous layer of material and just cling to the surface. When Doolin was pitching for LMII he made a point of mentioning that the Zpoxy and the other stuff were not meant or designed as a finishing material and steps to avoid problems had to be taken – one sand the stuff off completely and two apply a bearer coating of shellac since it “sticks” to most materials.

The main reason I am back to Nitro lacquer is solely the burn-in characteristic – I did like the results I’ve had using the Target products. However, the process had to be completed on a strict schedule or the minimal burn in feature (contrary to claims it is not 100%) of the product diminished and in my experience witness line could be seen if the newer coats were sanded down to older coats. In fairness this was the USL not the 6000.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Nov 17, 09 | 4:47 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Thanks guys. I wanted to get this guitar "presentable" by Christmas. This finishing stuff, plus waiting for some custom inlay from DePaule, is threatening that target.

So, if I use epoxy (or Zpoxy, which I have some of), I need a barrier coat of shellac. I would do that anyway, since in the past I've used the HSF filler (successfully on rosewood, which is the reason this mahogany is driving me nuts), and followed the HSF water base with shellac and then WipeOn Poly or KTM-9. (Might not have needed the barrier coat with the KTM-9, but switching manufacturers, I decided to put the shellac in between the Target HSF and the KTM from Grafted Coatings.)

Back to the shop.

Nov 17, 09 | 5:34 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Another thing -- this may sound scarey --- I use a single edge razor blade rather than sand paper to level out the dust, sags, drips, etc. Its very easy to do -- hold the blade at an angle to the surface and take care not to dig in with the corners. I suppose you could knock off the corners of the blade, but I don't bother. This technique may prevent some of the pore filler "pull out". I use a orbit sander (DA) on car body panels and furniture, but not guitars -- my touch just is not that good --- they can take off a lot of coating and wood surface in just a second.

Ken

Nov 17, 09 | 11:20 am
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Bill, sorry I took so long to respond.

I guess you're moved forward with the epoxy? The Target filler seems to be kinda hit and miss right now with a lot of folks. The drying time seems to be critical and leaves me scratching my heat at time too! I wish there was a better option...and I'm still looking. Epoxy is a definite no for me and the solvent stuff pretty much in the same category. Mahogany, for me, takes a fill better than some of the rosewoods and two coats usually do the job.

Another good filler for colored pores is Elmers wood putty, like you buy at lowes, home depot or walmart. I used it on several guitars by thinning it with water to a mayonnaise consistency and working it into the pores with my fingers. It does require a lot of sanding after it dries to remove all of the filler left on the surfaces.

I've been experimenting with CA glue as a pore filler with good results but the odor is just terrible...gotta do it outside when the weather is nice wearing full eye protection with a respirator.

Nov 23, 09 | 8:29 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
thanks Tim, and everybody -- I've pretty much decided, after a week of experimentation, that CA is the best thing I can find. I don't know why, but the mahogany I'm working on seems just impossible to fill, and I can't figure out why. The tiny little "cross-pores" are most of the problem -- the ones that run along the grain aren't so bad. Takes forever to test all the way through though.

The epoxy didn't work very well, as it turned out. So I started testing with the CA -- of the four types I tried -- gel, thick, thin and medium -- the medium has seemed to work the best on the test pieces.

Bill

Nov 23, 09 | 10:07 am
Hugh

Total Topics: 16
Total Posts: 309
Bill, I'm like Ken, I can't make the ra sander work on finishes. On wood, but not finishes. I unplug the electricity and get out a wood sanding block for anything to do with finish. My stuff is still not great, but it certainly got better when I figured this out.

Someone on this site said ca doesn't work on mahogany. I can't remember who.

Nov 23, 09 | 12:27 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Hugh -- I've been hand sanding for the last few tests; those pesky little grooves, perpendicular to the main grain, still won't fill. I remember reading about something that didn't work on mahogany, but I didn't think it was CA... was it? I've had the best results so far with CA on the mahogany. I tested it on some rosewood, and it fills very nicely on that, too.



Nov 23, 09 | 1:06 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
I'm with Tim on the CA fumes --- nasty! Bill, I too have been messing with pore filling for the last several weeks so I could put a repeatable finishing schedule on the KMG site that will likely result in a high quaity end product --- As indicated above a lot of time was devoted to the clear fillers --- I would say that they do have a slight edge appearance wise if the process executed to a "T". But here I go again --- time and time again Pore O Pac "oil base version" produces the best results, despite the messyness of the application. It is quick and forgiving and requires very little sanding. Lighter fluid can be used for thinning and to remove excess as opposed to sanding. The down side is that it takes a full three days for three coats which what I find to be the norm (for me anyway). The process cannot be rushed.

Ken

Nov 23, 09 | 1:13 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
I hear ya, Ken Cierp on the pore-opac, I will have to try it some time. Guys, I really wonder where the trouble is on Mahogany...I have three successes with Mahogany, but I use a lot of silica for solids content, so it doesn't "soak" in to the back of the pores. I also make sure I "wipe" in a number of differnet directions. I wonder if, in some spots, you are wiping in a direction that pulls it out of the pores instead of pushing it in and "shearing" it off. just a thought.

Nov 23, 09 | 2:18 pm
Hugh

Total Topics: 16
Total Posts: 309
On the famowood filler question page is the comment about ca not working with mahogany or walnut. Guess which 2 woods I have the most of right now?

Nov 23, 09 | 2:27 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
I wrote (and deleted) a long post about everything I've tried.

What it boils down to is that I don't know how to do it.

Quite discouraging.

Bill

Nov 23, 09 | 2:43 pm
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Hey Bill, I'm with you! The first time I used the WB filler I almost threw it in the trash can. Nothing works as well as I'd like either....but sometimes you just have to pick your poison and stay with it.

Today, I put two coats of pore filler on a Honduran RW dread....I was thinking all the time that I should update the forum on what's working best now with the Target WB filler....I guess this is as good a place as any.

I'm making it much thicker with silica...like heavy cream or even mayonnaise. Too thick to brush so I just wipe it on cith a stiff card and continue to scrape in every direction until the surface is pretty much scraped clean of the filler. The stuff dies fast and starts to gel while scraping. To get a sense of time, I'm applying and scraping the back surface one coat in about 4 minutes. Sand with 320 or 400 between coats.

Still, it's not perfect........but it's the best solution for me right now.
Tim

Nov 23, 09 | 4:05 pm
Hugh

Total Topics: 16
Total Posts: 309
I've tried several pore-fill methods on broken sides and none looked right. I charged forward anyway with 12 coats of nitro. At about coat #9 pores weren't to be seen. With each pore-fill method it was nearly the same. Is that how it's supposed to work? This was preparing to finish an all-mahogany. I wonder if it's repeatable.
Has anyone else had these results?

Nov 24, 09 | 2:37 pm
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Hugh, I've heard others claim that they don't pore fill at all, just spray enough nitro to bridge the pores!

But don't try it with water based finish, it does not bridge gaps as well as nitro.....one of the few negatives I guess.

I just pore filled a mahogany neck as described above...a heavy paste using WB clear filler and silica powder. Two coats applied with a card scraper did a pretty decent job.

Nov 25, 09 | 2:12 am
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
I had a hard time with Mahogany to till I learned how . This is how Martin does it and I find it works well for me. They use a product similar to pore o paq . They size the wood , stain then seal with a vinyl sealer. At this point the filler is applied.
The filler has to be worked into the wood ,it won't flow . The filler is not used straight but they have a little trick , they will get the filler colored very dark , I use natural and ad the stain , I use minwax dark walnut and ebony . I prepare my mix in a small margarine cup . I start with 3 tablespoons. Mix in the stain and stir. I want it to be about the same texture of Hershey's syrup. I then add 1-2 drops of naphtha to aid in the flash time.
Tools used are 1 a stiff brush or old Ccard . A small buffer with lambs wool bonnet. Brush on a good coat you can also use a Ccard to apply and watch for it to flash . It will go from that wet shiny look to a dull chocolate bar appearance , at this . At this point you hit it with a buffer. You want to see small balls of filler start to work up. This will tell you that you are forcing filler into the pores. You may need to do this twice. IT works. Once filled you seal again.
Finishing is perhaps the hardest part of building. It takes time to find your technique but don't give up. You need that work time to really get the pores filled.
john hall
Blues Creek Guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repaircenter

Nov 25, 09 | 3:30 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
I agree 100% with John! As I mentioned earlier this is a messy process but worked on any wood I tried it on. You can burnish the filler in by hand but the buffer method is what they use in the factory. I believe the speed of the buffer generates some heat and this helps pack the the filler into the pores. I have tried many times to get the same results with the water based Por O Pac with only marginal results ---- use the oil based product.

Note the offset for the messiness is that very little sanding is required.

Also -- perhaps most important -- follow the drying time requirements on the cans, otherwise the process is sure to fail.

"Fine wine takes time"

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Nov 25, 09 | 5:24 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Thanks everyobdy for the various processes, tips, and encouragement. I have a new sheet of 2x4 foot $8 mahogany sheet from Home Depot and I'm going to go at it (testing) again.

Bill

Nov 25, 09 | 7:03 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
John -- next time you get to this point on a mahogany body, how about a video on the buffer procedure?

Bill

Nov 25, 09 | 7:05 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Bill, I can't believe you get mahogany, even as plywood, at Home Depot. Most exotic hardwood anythign I can get at mine in the Chicago area is cherry or oak.

Don't get discouraged....keep plugging away at it....something will break loose, maybe the tips John and Ken just mentioned. I think we all have some aspect of the build that really gets to us. For me, its neck carving. I have never once been able to carve one that I liked. I love the process....its so cathartic to just carve away and smooth, but I can never get the transition from neck to headstock to look like anything attractive. Dunno why, but it drives me nuts.

Nov 25, 09 | 8:52 am
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
I am planning on a finish video but that will take a while . I will put this on the list

john hall
Blues Creek Guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repaircenter

Nov 25, 09 | 1:01 pm
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
I'm really glad I found this thread today. I am just about to test finish african mahogany for my next build. I was planning to do french polish and pore fill with pumice. it sounds like that method would be very very slow going.

Nov 26, 09 | 4:03 am
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
The naphtha speeds the flash time. You should be ready to buff in the filler in 5 to 15 minutes. Once the shine goes and you get the filler to ball as you buff is what you are looking for. Without the Naphtha you are looking at a 45 minute wait.

john hall
Blues Creek Guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repaircenter

Nov 26, 09 | 10:25 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
John -- At what speed do you run the buffer? I'm assuming slow??

Bill

Nov 26, 09 | 10:28 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
What a nice thread to find upon my return! I am in the middle of pore filling my mahogany 000 and it has been slow going. I'm using Target HSF, and have been gradually adding more and more silica with each coat. I'm up to three coats so far, and I know it needs at least one more. I think I'll go for the really thick mix menitoned above on the next coat and see how that works.

For those interested in using epoxy as a pore filler, I had good results using System III Clear Coat epoxy and silica on a swamp ash bass body. Swamp Ash also has some really big pores to fill. Three coats of epoxy/silica was all it took. But like Pore-O-pac, it takes time. Each coat needs to dry thoroughly before sanding - I waited overnight each time.

Dec 30, 09 | 11:48 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
I had good results for it too, but ran out of money & time to order it. I pass 7 hardware stores on my way home, and figured I'd support the local businesses this time.

Dec 31, 09 | 5:30 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I tried mixing more silica into the HSF for coat #4, but I wasn't comfortable with how dry it ended up. So I reverted back to my 1:1 by volume mix and applied the fourth coat. This time I waited about 3 minutes before squeegeeing the excess off. Early in the process it took a bit over three minutes for the HSF to become too stiff to squeegee. As the work progressed, the working time went down until I had barely 2 minutes to get the stuff off the wood. I suspect the small, open jar containing my 1:1 mix was slowly setting up as I worked, reducing the working time. Made the last side kind of a frantic experience!

Sanded that coat today and I've declared the mahogany "filled enough". It's not glass smooth like it would have been with System III epoxy, but it is pretty well filled. Even if a bit of grain shows thorugh I can live with it. On to shellacing!

Dec 31, 09 | 5:10 pm



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