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Target EMTECH 6000 water based finish
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MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 68
Oh what a struggle! Getting a GREAT finish using any finish! I decided on my first guitar that I would not introduce the harsh chemicals of conventional oil and solvent based finishes into my environment (and body). So...off to find THE acceptable WB finish with the look players expect to see, the durability of modern factory finishes and environmentally friendly.

I started at my local lumber supply: Not there in the Minwax products
Not there with the WB varnishes, shellac...no.......nothing satisfied the needs.

I ordered and tried Stewmac colortone...ah-ha, pretty close to what I was after. A little research revealed that it is actually Target Ultima . So off i go and order that along with the Pore filler

Anyway, to cut this short, I used Ultima and found 95% of what I wanted. 100% burn in, no witness lines, levels good and good clarity and gloss. Recently, Target offered EMTECH 6000 to the general public in 1 gal containers. WOW! it seems to fill the last 5% I was looking for with additional gloss, a slicker feel and is slightly harder at 100hr cure and still offers no witness lines so future repairs are a breeze.

A few images from guitars still on the workbench....wish I were a better photographer!






Tim

Jan 22, 09 | 4:12 pm
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
All I can say is , WOW!
Those pics make me want glossy on my next build.
Thanks for sharing.
I've got some KTM-9 I am going to experiment with. How would you say it compares to the finish you are getting here?

Kevin

Jan 22, 09 | 5:13 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Very Nice! can you share your finishing schedule? I assume that is sprayed not brushed.

Kevin, Target Coatings offers entire finishing systems -- KTM-9 is a stand alone product. The company that makes KTM-9 offers no support and specializes in finishes for composite exterior doors. In my view, there is no comparison for those reasons !

I know that at least one well known Luthier who once endorsed KTM-9 no longer uses it because his customers though it was too soft.

Ken

Kennneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Jan 22, 09 | 5:54 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Very nice Tim! I called Target a week ago to ask how long the shelf life of my open can of USL is. Talked to Jeff Weiss who encouraged me to try the Emtech 6000. It showed up today. My OOO is filled, sanded, and ready to spray. I just need a warm garage to spray in.

I am also interested in your finishing schedule and how It was similar or different from the USL.

Again,well done!

Ken

Jan 22, 09 | 7:32 pm
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Thanks guys!

Pretty simple application:

-pore filler on raw wood, I use System 3 silica thickener to give it a little more body on really porous woods. Apply with brush, scrape of in about 3 minutes, sand when dry, repeat if needed.

-Sealer, brush on one or two coats. I usually use the Target WB shellac, it helps to enhance the figuring in the wood. At leat 1hr to dry. De-nib before next step.

-Spray 3 coats, 45min to 1 hr apart. If the humidity is low and my schedule allows I sometimes spray 4 coats throughout the day,,,,usually the 4th is several hours after the 3rd. Be careful building too fast or you'll trap moisture in and end up with a white haze.

-Repeat to get your final desired film. For a thin finish I usually do a minimum of 8 top coats, for mor porous woods, or when a thicker film is required I do 12. Headstocks are 12 or more.

With Ultima or Em6000 you don't have to sand back between coats if you respray within 24hrs. So it's possible if you spray level you can do without any sanding until final. Often though, I'll lightly sand with 300 after the fist day to cut the nibs and see how level the base is.

NOTE: It is possible to brush both EM6000 and Ultima with the addition of retarder but will probably require leveling at least between daily applications.

To be continued........

Tim
-

Jan 23, 09 | 2:28 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Tim,

What other finishes have you used to compare this one with? Sounds promising! What type of spray unit did you use? did you thin the EM6000 for spraying and if so, what did you use? the web link says it's harder than NitroCellulose, thoughts? Is it's weight similar to nitrocellulose laquer?

Jan 23, 09 | 9:23 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Fantastic, Tim. Can you get it in less than 1 gallon? I have their ultima now, and need to use it through the summer. If I use it all, I'll try the 6000, or wait until next year.

Jan 23, 09 | 10:25 am
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Adaboy, To be honest, I can't remember as I've been using Ultima for the last few years.....but I know I tried Minwax Polycrylic, a locally available WB high gloss Polyurethane and also a gloss floor finish....which worked better than the other two. I spray through a gravity feed, HVLP type gun...no mods at about 45psi.
No thinning when it's relativity fresh and warm. I've noticed as it cools and ages it's starting to thicken (just like Ultima). I can compare it to nitro as I've not used nitro. Target has an AWESOME forum that I'm sure will help answer your questions.

Ken, they have quarts, but at 1/2 price of a gallon.

Jan 23, 09 | 11:27 am
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Final sanding and polish:

Per specs, cure 100 hrs before final sanding. I've read and heard that you can speed sure with UV, heat,and air movement. I use a fan between coats and throughout the 3-4 day spray cycle. I have used a heated room with air circulating to boost drying in a rush.

TIP: If you get a heavy coat by mistake, to prevent sags and runs, get it under a fan immediately, keeping the heavily sprayed area as horizontal as possible until you see it start to dry.

Final sanding: Level with 800 grit dry using a 5" RO...I don't use anything courser 800 after the last 2 to 3 coats. Sand with 1200 dry RO. Wet sand/polish with 2000 Abralon using minimal mineral spirits as lube.

IF you've done a good job with the 1200 and 2000, you can go to your polish of choice for a mirror shine. I use a 5" waffle foam pad on a drill press and prefer liquid fine polishes and swirl removers. IF you've done a good job you won't need a course or even medium polish.

Tim

Jan 23, 09 | 11:56 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Tim, where did you find/purchase the "stearate free" random orbit sanding disks?

Thanks Ken

Jan 24, 09 | 6:46 am
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Hey Ken, I don't particularity pay any attention to "sterate free". I think just about all of it is now.

At least I have not had any problems that I can attribute to sandpaper "fisheyes" or craters not relating to open pores.

Tim

Jan 24, 09 | 9:30 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
I am confused -- normal for me!

I contacted a large number of abrasive producers and the answer was the same -- ALL our products now have non-clogging soap compounds alias --"stearates". So are you saying you have been told the opposite? or that you don't worry about it?

Thanks

Ken

Jan 24, 09 | 11:15 am
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Ken, I just don't worry about it. I do use the no-clog 5" velcro discs from different manufacturers and I've never had a problem with the Target finish on 50-60 guitars so it's a non-issue.

BTW, I've just stared using some Abralon mesh abrasive, it seems to last a little longer and does not clog at all. Not sure if it has stearates or not...I doubt it.
Tim

Jan 25, 09 | 5:57 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
This interesting, the Abralon products are loaded with stearates -- Mirka brags about it in their ads --- its one of the reasons it lasts longer than the similar 3M products. What do you use for tack rags?

I am going to contact Jeff Weiss to see if he has done research on the different abrasive brands --- seems like broad brushing the stearate issue may be a precautionary rather than a data based conclusion. Truthfully for me it was/is a big issue and one of the reasons I lean toward Nitro.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978


Jan 26, 09 | 2:06 am
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
cotten...damp with water

Target Coating Forum This is just one post I picked out. You can search for more.

I had the same concerns starting out, and read the same comments about not using stearate sandpaper, but I was determined NOT to use nasty nitro based lacquer. And it really has been a non-issue.

Tim

Jan 26, 09 | 2:24 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Thanks Tim, great link! --- pretty much sums it up, but sure catches Jeff in a 180 degree turn around. Why bother to put the warning on the can?

OK, that out of the way --- I personally do not like the way solvent based shellac tints the light woods and the streaking that can occur when brushed on. In your opinion, how does the WB target shellac compare? Hopefully its more friendly and transparent.

Thanks again

Ken

Jan 26, 09 | 2:46 am
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
Ken,
Did I read somewhere (where did I see that?) that you use Deft Lacquer with great success?

Kevin

Jan 26, 09 | 12:00 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Maybe here?

http://www.kitguitarsforum.com/forum/threads.php?id=3661_0_7_0_C

Ken

Jan 26, 09 | 12:09 pm
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68

WB shellac is much more forgiving than solvent based.....streaking is minimal and drying time is extended. The amber does color the spruce if used on raw wood, A diluted coat of sealer prior to the shellac will minimize the staining effect.

At one time, Target had a blond listed but I don't see it available now.

Tim

Jan 26, 09 | 4:12 pm
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Ken, That should have been Abranet sanding discs. I do you Abralon but only in 2000 for final sanding

Jan 27, 09 | 2:16 am
Rob W

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 8
I just finished an electric I did with EM6000, and I really like this finish. It's got a great feel.

I just wanted to let every one know that this stuff brushes well too. I don't have any place to spray, and in my search for a brush on finish I stumbled across this at Targets site. To make the emtech suitable for brushing you mix 15-20% retarder. I found it pretty easy to get fairly even coats, but there seems to be 2 tricks.

1-get a quality brush. I got mine right from target. You want really fine bristles.

2-try not to go over the same spots more than once.

I used 12 coats, and leveled and polished after 7 days. Wet up to 12000 Micro mesh, then auto compounds by hand. Came out great.

You can even tint or pigment this finish. I used Stew Macs pigment, and tried Trans tint for a tinted look. I mixed my tint to dark for what I was after, but it did look great before I sanded it off. With the tint, I used the EM6000 with the retarder, and it seemed to work well. The pigment doesn't need the retarder. This came from Jeff at Target. He said the viscosity would thin when the pigment was added, so thats what I did, and it came out great.

Just wanted to share this for those that might not have access to spray equip.




Feb 12, 09 | 1:55 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Looks really nice Rob. Congrats on a terrific finish!

Ken

Feb 12, 09 | 6:25 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Gorgeous Flame, Rob, how does she play?

Feb 12, 09 | 8:05 pm
Guitar Hack

Total Topics: 19
Total Posts: 41
With Emtech 6000 do I need to put on a shellac coat? I notice that Emtech no longer carries blonde shellac but carries amber or Garnet. I would prefer that the finish be as clear as possible.

If I need shellac what is a clear compatible shellac?

Apr 06, 09 | 1:41 pm
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
No, you can seal with EMT6000. Tim

Apr 12, 09 | 6:09 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Tim, did you use the Target HSF5100 Grain Filler or some other filler product? I am about the finish my ancient 000 project and the Target system looks really good for my needs. I want to try a brushed finish this time. After looking at their web site it appears the schedule would be:

1. Fill grain with HSF5100
2. Seal (and perhaps tint/dye) with UlraSeal-WB Shellac ( I was going to use Amber shellac anyway, so the tint is no issue for me)
3. Finish with EMT6000

Sounds pretty simple to me!

Apr 13, 09 | 11:55 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I'd like to ask for opinions about when in my finishing schedule to dye/stain the mahogany during finishing? I was planning to use TransTint dyes in water to even out the color of the wood. Would I do that dye work prior to applying the filler?

Apr 16, 09 | 11:52 am
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Dennis, I do use the Target HSF....but I add system 3 silica to thicken it.

As far as stain, I stain after pore fill. But I've never used the transtint so you're on you own! I'd do a test section to make sure there are no adverse effects.

Apr 16, 09 | 5:31 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I found a thread over on the Target Coatings forum where Jeff Weiss talks about a finishing schedule for mahogany. His approach doesn't use pore filler at all:

1. Seal with one coat of UltralSeal-WB Shellac.
2. Sand back to mostly bare wood (leaving shellac in the pores)
3. Stain and allow to dry.
4. Sand back again (stain is now embedded in the grain and pores).
5. Stain again.
6. Seal with one coat of UltraSeal-WB Shellac
7. Build top coats.

This schedule was not using EM6000 as the top coat. I was surprised that there was no pore filler in the schedule at all.

I'll definitely be doing some practice panels to sort all of this out!

Apr 17, 09 | 11:27 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Dennis -- was he writing about guitar finishing, or something else?


Apr 17, 09 | 11:36 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
That discussion was based on tests he did using cabinet panels. So I am not clear on whether he was looking for a complete pore fill or not. The text of the thread implied that the finish was fully filled.

Here is the thread for the curious:
http://www.targetcoatings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658

I am definitely going to experiment a bit before I commit to a specific schedule on my guitar. I'm looking on eBay now for some lower-cost mahogany panels to test upon. I have some mahogany ply from a local store but it is a quite different grain structure than my guitar's mahogany. I'll try to shoot lots of pictures and put together a web page or blog of my results.

Apr 17, 09 | 12:33 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Still no response from Target regarding the proper brush to use. Another forumite there recommended the DaVinci as well and confirmed that it works extremely well with Target products. So I'll grab one of those from the local store.

A few days after I placed my order with Target I received an Earth Day Special flyer from them via email. It is for 25% off any order placed at their online store. I sent a quick note to them asking whether they would retro-actively apply it to my order and they said "no problem". Cool!

Apr 20, 09 | 7:29 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
FYI, here is a godd post from a guy who had problems with witness lines using EMTech 6000......and how he was able to apparently solve the issue:

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22069

Apr 24, 09 | 10:05 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I think that person's problem was also discussed on the Target Coatings forum. jeff Weiss is pretty adamant that EM6000 does not respond well to wet sanding. I don't like to wet sand on wood instruments anyway, so that will not be a problem for me.

At Tim's suggestion I have contacted Eben Atwater for his input on brushed finishes with Target products. He is very happy with their stuff and shared his finishing schedule with me. I have his permission to post it here, so I'll try to open a new thread with that info some time this weekend.

Apr 24, 09 | 11:57 am
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Regarding the link above, I think the guy was having problems from spraying on a polished/cured surface and did not rough it up. For adhesion and burn-in, the USL and EM6000 requires that cured (over 24hrs) or polished surface be roughed up with 400 to 600 prior to new coats.

Water is a solvent for WB finishes!...at least until they are fully cured(100hrs), so I sand with mineral spirits as a lube for the final 2000 grit....no problems, no issues like they reported other than one time I re-sprayed on a polished surface myself! All my other sanding is dry.

Apr 27, 09 | 4:27 pm
Dmac252

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 28
Great stuff here, few question regarding the Target HSF filler if someone could advise it would be greatly appreciated
I am new to the forum and new to the waterbase I purchased the HSF filler, the WB shallac, and the EM6000 product as well. In your experience aside from adding the silica. How long do you let the filler dry before you scrape the first time. The can says 2-5 minutes and the web site says 5-10 minutes. for my initial effort I applied liberally and let stand for 3 minutes (?) to split the dif. When I scraped it off some areas scrape to the dry wood , leaving some filler in the pores, and other areas seem to leave a film. Not sure what I should be looking for. When I used the system 3 epoxy I scraped off as much as I could with a razor blade. Any tips you cold share ?

THANKS
Dennis

Sep 24, 09 | 5:46 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I've had a really hard time getting used to the HSF filler. I've tried waiting from 1 to 5 minutes after application, and it always seems like it is either still too wet or it has set up too far. There never seems to be a good in-between point for me!

I've only applied one coat to my guitar so far. A applied it with a foam brush and the I used a pad of blue paper towels to rub it into the grain. This seems to have worked pretty well. I can feel when it starts to set up and get any excess filler off right away. I'll report back when I finally get a chance to do some more coats and see how well it builds in the pores. I have also used System III with silica thickener and that took 3-4 coats on my electric bass. So if padding HSF takes 3-4 coats I will consider that a pretty good result.

Sep 24, 09 | 7:48 pm
Dmac252

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 28
I will talk with Jeff Weiss at Target today and see what he has to recommend. It may, just as you say, be a case of getting used to the different product.

Sep 25, 09 | 2:15 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
In my opinion one of the "worst tid bits" of finishing advice is to use a credit card to scrape off pore filler HSF or what ever. I was surprised to see that at the Target site. Anyway I recommend the 3M Rubber Squeegee part# 05518 or second choice is a bathroom shower squeegee.

It is doubtful that one could get a perfect pore fill in just one try no matter what product is used --- what's the rush?

I plan on at least three applications even with "Pore O Pac" (my recommendation) between applications sand back to bare wood, and remove "every speck of dust". Before top coating I apply a couple of coats of sanding sealer to fill pin holes then sand back one more time.

I have not tried it yet, but at the Martin factory they stain, seal than fill -- rather then just wiping the filler off, they burnish it into the pores with the high speed buffing wheel --- very cool.

$.02

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Sep 25, 09 | 5:58 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
That re-flowing of surface material intot he pores might be the very reason they can do it in one shot...or do they do it in two?

Sep 25, 09 | 10:40 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Ken, I will double check but I think its one application -- and I believe its followed by a couple of heavy coats of vinyl sealer -- which also is a pore filler to some degree. Dick Boak has a video regarding the Martin finishing process, if my memory serves me he states that even after the first few coats of lacquer they are still filling in pores -- Hmm, just like us!

Ken

Sep 25, 09 | 10:47 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Dennis,

I have used Target's HSPF on two guitars. I fought it both times and used a variety of squeegees. The squeegee does make a difference, but this stuff is just plain difficult to use. It also shrinks more than I had hoped. I complained to Jeff Weiss about it over the past winter and asked if he was working on a better variation. He said he was aware of the difficulty and agreed it was not the most user friendly product. He also acknowledged the shrinking. He said he had been so focused on his topcoats that the HSPF had been neglected and nothing was really forthcoming at the time.

I have since stopped using it and went back to Behlen's Pore O Pac for the last guitar, but I am using the water-based version where I used to use the petroleum solvent based version. It is pretty good stuff. The water-based version flashes more quickly, so you need to stay on top of it. I'll be breaking out the Behlen's again here shortly to pore fill another guitar.

Ken


Sep 25, 09 | 4:51 pm
Dmac252

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 28
Certainly not looking to get it done in one pass. I have been doing finishes for some time now. This is my first at bat with the HSF product. I did three applications today with a sand back ( by hand) with 400 paper. Looks pretty good, no very good but there are some very light pores remaining. My quality control supervisor is relentless ( the Mrs. ) So I will do one more tomorrow AM. I like the waterbase filler sanding after 2 hrs is good with me. I found the HSF out of the can , a bit unruly, hard to keep up with the running particularly on the sides of the guitar so I adds some silica to thicken it up and that seemed to work better for me. I did use a plastic card though to spread it. ( what would be the drawback to using the card? ) I believe this will be the final application for the filler. any remaining divots will be so slight that the sealer and lacquer should take care of it. I and using all Target products for this project I am anticipating/hoping for better then good results I have guitar bodies stacking in the que. I would prefer not to continue shooting nitro in my small shop/spray room.

Sep 25, 09 | 4:54 pm
Dmac252

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 28
Just did several guitars with the HSF product. 1 ash bass body. Acoustics= 2 Rosewood, 1 BRW , 1 Makore.

On the first one I had some issues, not being used to the thin nature of the HSF I found it to be a bit unruly to manage particularly on the sides couldn't keep up with the running. After reading this thread. I added silica to subsequent coats ( worked better for me ). Contacted Jeff W from target and he had no issue with the addition of the silica, but suggested that I try brushing on a thicker coat ( non sag) no scrape off and waiting the 2 hrs before sand back . I did that on a second Rosewood body and to be honest after sand back I did not find it to be a better method then adding the silica and squeegeeing it in and off, like I did with the system 3 epoxy. The brush on added additional sanding effort without benefit that I could see, still had to do additional applications anyway. I decided to do all the remaining bodies with the squeegee method and silica. Depending on the pore nature I have had to do 3 applications on a couple, 2 on the ash, 4 on one rosewood. Not a problem though the sand back with this method is quick and the final result is very good, and very flat.. With my schedule I am able to do 3 bodies in a day. Certainly better then any of the oil base when I was doing the Nitro.I should be sealing and top coating next week I will post results I did photo the pore filling but not much to see in the photo

Oct 01, 09 | 4:09 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I had good success with System III epoxy and silica, so adding silica to HSF sounds like a good move to me. Can you share what volumes of HSF and silica you used? Or did you mix in silica to a particular consistency?

Oct 01, 09 | 9:13 am
Dmac252

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 28
I mixed the Silica to the cold cream consistency similar to the Sys III Epoxy.. Only mix about what you will need because if you mix a larger batch when you go back to it later it will appear to be the consistency of HSF before you added the silica. Don't know why but it does. Anyway just mix it to where you like the spreadability then squeegee it off. I don't think it matters much since the silica dissolves. I worked it pretty much like I did the Sys 3. The difference is I sanded it back to the bear wood with the HSF. I am trying to stay with a consistent product. We shall see

Oct 01, 09 | 2:26 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
I believe if you go back up the thread you'll find that Tim Metcalf, the original poster states his entire finishing schedule and his use of silica in the HSF.

BTW I still use the Target USL as my first choice for WB top coat -- I have actually heared from a few that they have tried both the 6000 and USL and they like the USL better -- since I am satified with the USL (several instruments tracked about three years now -- no problems) I can't think of a reason to change. .02

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978


Oct 01, 09 | 2:50 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
I have used the silica in System III, Tru-oul Pore Filler, and my own epoxy blend I tried once. The stuff worked perfectly in all of them. It is non-reactive, and doesn't shrink, I have a hard time seeing how it could not aid in any pore filler if it mixes well enough. Any blemishes in the finish are due to my own impatience or lack of skill with a spray gun, not due to pore filling.

Oct 01, 09 | 3:54 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
It seems that the two clear WB fillers Target HSF and CrystalLac pore filler may actually be compatible with nitro lacquer -- that is my hope -- I am waiting on tech info from both companies.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitarsest. 1978

Oct 01, 09 | 4:01 pm
Dmac252

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 28
I have used the HSF under nitro, my own inexperience with applying (pre silica ) the HSF aside the end product was trouble free no reaction with the nitro.



Oct 01, 09 | 4:14 pm
Dmac252

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 28
A different question would be has anyone used the 6000 lacquer over nitro ? I have some refinishes to do it would be much easier to not remove the nitro if possible.

Oct 01, 09 | 4:16 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Dmac252 -- I think one part of your description of silica -- that it dissolves -- is incorrect. It does disappear in the clear HSF and in System 3, etc., because that form of silica takes on moisture ... but silica doesn't dissolve.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica)
"Inhaling finely divided crystalline silica dust in very small quantities (OSHA allows 0.1 mg/m3) over time can lead to silicosis, bronchitis or (much more rarely) cancer, as the dust becomes lodged in the lungs and continuously irritates them, reducing lung capacities (silica does not dissolve over time)."

Be careful with this powdery stuff.

Bill

Oct 01, 09 | 4:45 pm
Dmac252

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 28
Yea maybe dissolve was incorrect wording but in any case if you let the HSF heavily thickened with the silica sit for a while it will revert to the same consistency or very close to what it was before the addition of the silica

Oct 01, 09 | 5:04 pm
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
FYI, for those looking at EMTech 6000, some recent posts on other forums indicate that it still has the blueish cast on dark woods......not always visible inside but noticeable outdoors or in good lighting. Not sure if you can tint and get rid of this affect or not. Some claim that a thinner application helps. Just a heads-up.....I've not used the product.

Oct 02, 09 | 10:55 am
Dmac252

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Total Posts: 28
I will start spraying the EMtech 6000 this weekend I will post results for sure

Oct 02, 09 | 3:22 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
That will stay for about a year, then begin to clear up....typical in waterborne finishes as they fully cure and harden. My jumbo and Dragon were finished with KTM-9, and had the same thing, all cleared up now.

Oct 02, 09 | 7:24 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Even Nitro (Martin, others) and Polyester (Taylor, Larivee, Doolin) will have the bluish tint illusion on Rosewood when in the "bright sun" it stays apparent outdoors in the "bright sun" for some time, others stay that way, noticable in the "bright UV sunlight" many years. I believe it is a non-issue.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Oct 03, 09 | 5:02 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
My SE Asian RW OM I sprayed this past spring had a very bluish cast when done. Much more so than the Mahogany OMC I sprayed with USL a year earlier. I used a couple of coats of EM8800 as base coat, which I largely attributed as the cause and don't plan on using again. About five months have passed since I sprayed and the bluish haze is pretty much gone.

Ken

Oct 04, 09 | 7:50 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Come to find out -- Target no longer sells the Oxford USL --- so I'll be giving the 6000 lacquer a test after all.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars es. 1978

Oct 04, 09 | 3:53 pm
RayRay

Total Topics: 21
Total Posts: 190
Ken, I've been told Target makes the Water based finishes for Stew-Mac under their name...(Which WAS "Oxford"USL ) and are now supplying them with that finish exclusively...
Thus, thru some sort of agreement, it's no longer available under the "Oxford" name from Target...you may want to check out that possibility.
They( Stew-Mac OR Target) may or may not own up to it...just have to see if we can find out somehow..

Ray

Oct 09, 09 | 8:13 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Thanks Ray -- however, honestly I never use chemicals, finishes, glues etc. that are repackaged by a retailer. I only deal with the company who has actually done the engineering for the product.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Oct 09, 09 | 8:30 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Yeah....now you'd just pay more.

Oct 09, 09 | 10:43 am
Dmac252

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Total Posts: 28
Just finished a couple of guitars with the EM6000. Took a bit longer then I expected, not caused by the EM6000. I was not happy with the results with my existing spray guns/nozzle and tips. I am using a Fuji Q3 Turbine system both of my guns are bleeder type. Turns out the the tips I was using for the nitro were too small for the waterbase finish. Then I had difficulty getting the right nozzle for the fuji gun 1.4mm initially had a 1.0mm still haven't worked that one out all the needle stems they send me are too long for the gun ( very frustrating ) so I went with my Apollo and they sent the wrong nozzle at first but at least finally sent me the correct one and off I finally went they had a 1.5mm Apollo This works great for me. That being resolved I was able to lay some material on properly ( what a difference from from applying the thinned product ) It holds on quite well with the heaver coats and I now get a great build with no problem. All that to say I am very happy with the final result I have 5 bodies in the Que. The two in the photos are just the first ones to make it to the buffing wheel. I Found that it sanded level very easily I dry sanded with 800 then went to 3 buffing compounds. I think on the next couple up I will wet sand with 1000 or better ( anyone have thoughts on the wet sanding the waterbase finish ?) The bit of extra work at the buffing wheel still got a great result but I don't like to heat it up too much. I am certainly sticking with this for the foreseeable future. I will be keeping the Bass around so I can get a feel for the general endurance.

So at this point I am a happy guy. Very simple to spray ( with proper eq ). Easy to level and it buffs out to high gloss very nicely. Wooo hooo






Nov 14, 09 | 6:11 pm
Dmac252

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Here is the bass in the raw



Nov 14, 09 | 6:36 pm
Bill Cory

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Wow -- Wooo hoo is right -- those are magnificent!

Bill

Nov 15, 09 | 5:09 am
RayRay

Total Topics: 21
Total Posts: 190
Boy those are wonderful! Just for kicks...what did you do your "Burst" colors with on the base? Thanks so much for sharing...WOWOW!
I've been told by others the dry sanding is a better deal with correct paper on the 6000...because it's less messy and you can control the sanding...but that's only what I've been told...
Bill's right...magnificent finish! :)

Nov 15, 09 | 6:07 am
Dmac252

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Total Posts: 28
The burst has a sealer/barrier coat of the target waterbase shellac (amber) and then a coat of em6000 with 20 drops ( in 1/oz of water) of colortone vintage amber to 300ml of 6000. the edge burst I adding 60 drops of colortone tobacco brown ( in 1/2oz of water) to the remaining amber tinted mix. Took about 5 sessions to get the edge color build I wanted The tints should sit at least 1 hr each in the 6000 before spraying to mix ( per Jeff W) . I then I sprayed the clear over the burst to get a good build over the burst so as not to sand through the color because you can never mach the sand through spot. What is cool is the the tobacco edge is built to a very rich color yet remains somewhat transparent looks great in the light. Should be assembling it this week and will post finished photos as well.

Nov 15, 09 | 10:22 am
RayRay

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Total Posts: 190
Thanks...great job! :)

Nov 15, 09 | 12:45 pm
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
( anyone have thoughts on the wet sanding the waterbase finish ?)

Dry sand to 1200 and then wet sand with 2000 abralon on a RO using mineral spirits to wet it.

Nov 19, 09 | 4:43 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Wow, it's great to see that this thread is still alive. And to see some beautiful results! After about a 6 month hiatus I am finally getting some shop time this week (no work this week for me). I'm still struggling to learn HSF pore filler, but things are improving. The first coat (6 months ago) was a challenge, as the filler seemed to go from liquid to "too hard to squeegee off" very quickly. For the second coat I added some silica powder to try and increase the fill. It helped a bit, but still did not fill too quickly. The third coat was also with the silica added, but I switch to a blue paper towel pad to work the filler into the grain. I had tried this earlier on the neck and it seemed to help pack filler into the pores a bit better.

After re-reading this thread, I think I should add even more silica. My mixture was about milkshake consistency - thickened but still runny. It sounds like I should thicken it even further. We'll see how the pores look after sanding this morning.

Dec 28, 09 | 7:53 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Side note: unlike my experience with KTM-9, the Target products don't seem to suffer any adhesion problems with prolonged times between coats. I sanded the HSF coat that I applied six months ago, blew off and wiped off the dust (with an alcohol soaked paper towel), let dry and applied a fresh coat of HSF. Adhesion was not a problem at all, and I was able to sand the second coat 5 hours later with no issues.

Dec 28, 09 | 7:55 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
The alcohol wipe helped....I noticed that the times I wiped with alcohol tended to soften the finish and improved burn in....the times I didn't (when I had to let more than a day pass between coats for whatever reason) you could see witness lines when level sanding.

Dec 28, 09 | 9:44 am
Dmac252

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Total Posts: 28
I can vouch for the witness lines. I did 2 more tobacco burst acoustics. And did get witness lines one more severe than the other. I brought them down to Target and showed them to Jeff. Couple of comment from him were that 1. I could be getting too aggressive with my buffing wheel. 2. I should give the alcohol wipe a try and see if I could buff it out, Less is more with the em6000. The wipe didn't get me where I wanted to be so I gave a good scuff sand and re applied some clear over the burst ( don't want to go through the color since these are transparent bursts it is impossible to match If I sand through. Originally I was pretty sure that I did not wait too long between coats. but I did wait over night to apply some of the coats along the way. I think I will do an alcohol wipe if I have to spray over a couple of days again. Did final coats Christmas eave and will wit 2 weeks for cure before I attempt to sand again. What do you guys fine is a good spray schedule ( min/max between coats )

Dec 28, 09 | 10:48 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
In the notes I received from Eban Atwater he mentions 3 coats per day of Target shellac or lacquer. I have not reached that point yet, so cannot comment on how well that would work. It is very similar to the schedule I used with KTM-9.

Dec 28, 09 | 11:59 am
Dmac252

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Total Posts: 28
Well I certainly have done 6 coats 1 Hr apart per day with no issues in the past. Since I am new to the Em6000 product I guess ignorance is bliss. 3 coats a day in a small production shop wouldn't work anyway the 6 is acceptable and aside from the 2 witness lines guitars I have completed 7 others with no issues and sold em. Do have to ( in my opinion ) wait the full to weeks for it to get hard. I am going to change my final sand and buff attack per jeff's suggestions. I did go softer touch on an Ovankol SJ I am finishing up and I must say it glassed up even more then the others, very nice. Just trying to get the best I can the easiest I can. And work through problems as they arise. When things work great it's wonderful the real test will be how easy will it be to solve problems along the way. Unlike the can't just chuck a guitar out when the process hiccups. The Target stuff seem to be working well so far. Although I am still not crazy about the HSF fiiller. I have tried the TimberMate product, really liking it thus far 30 minute dry time scuff sands back to bare wood with 320/400 like your wiping with a towel never blotches and you don't have to dig into the wood to get it off. and you can reuse the dust. oh yea stainable too

Dec 28, 09 | 12:22 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I just applied my first coat of Target water-bourne amber Shellac to the 000. I'm using the magic DaVinci #50 brush and all I can say is "WOW!" That brush is amazing! I have never had this kind of result brushing any finish before. I was able to get a smooth, even, bubble-free coat on the bare Spruce top with little effort at all. The first coat is drying tonight. Tomorrow it will get a light sanding with 400 grit and then coat #2, and hopeful a few more before the day is done.

Dec 31, 09 | 5:19 pm
Ken C

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Total Posts: 554
Dennis, I wouldn't sand that first coat of amber shellac. In fact, As that shellac is tinted, the more you sand, the lighter that area will be. I'd apply your second coat and a couple of top coats before you level. That way you won't sand away the shellac, lightening certain areas.

Ken

Dec 31, 09 | 5:27 pm
Dmac252

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Agreed any sanding of the amber will change the color and could easily give you uneven shades You should definitely put some clear coats over that before any sanding. If you are using the EmTech 6000 you will be amazed how easy it sands and levels. My philosophy has been to a few moer coats then I think I need because the sanding goes so easily you remove more then you think.

have fun, you gonna enjoy finishing now. The daVinci brushes are great

Dec 31, 09 | 6:24 pm
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
Thanks for the advice on sanding the shellac. I'll see how things look after the first coat is dry, but it sounds like a couple more coats would be a good plan. If I sand the shellac at all, it will be VERY lightly with 400 grit paper to knock off any fuzz.

Jan 01, 10 | 1:10 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Just applied coat #2 of shellac. The biggest issue I am having is controlling runs and uneven color on the white plastic bindings. Should I keep those masked off until I'm done with the amber shellac? I was hoping for them to appear a bit aged from the amber, but getting good coverage on the plastic seems nearly impossible without spraying.

Jan 01, 10 | 9:42 am
Dmac252

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Total Posts: 28
Cant do the shellac like your doin' the furniture. When using the DaVinci the coatshave to be really thin. Just enough to have the under layer look moist. Remember this is simple a barrier coat not a build. If your plan is to deepen the color you should add some of the colortone from Stewmac Vintage Amber 20 drops ( in 1oz of water first) in 300ml will of Em6000 almost match the amber shellac tone. Deepen to desires amber tone it color builds slowly but nicely then clear coat to get away from the color coats

Jan 01, 10 | 10:15 am
Dmac252

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Again the color coats must be applied thin

Jan 01, 10 | 10:17 am
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
The slight color I am seeing from the shellac is all the color I want. The problem is that the shellac runs horribly on the plastic binding. I'll have to try brusing it even more dry on the binding to see if I can control the runs. If not then I'll have to clean them up and mask them off.

Thanks for the input.

Jan 01, 10 | 10:31 am
Dmac252

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Are you trying to color the binding too ? If not scraping the binding is the most comon solution to clean once you toning is done. Masking is a long painfull ( in my opinion ) Process. Scraping is so much easier


Jan 01, 10 | 10:43 am
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
It is looking like leaving the binding white will be the easiest solution. Do most folks just tone/stain/shellac until that is done, then scrape the bindings clean and apply clear top coat? That would be MUCH easier than trying to mask the bindings!

Jan 01, 10 | 10:59 am
Dmac252

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Once you have finished you color layer, which you should try to get done the same day. You should scrap the binding with an exacto , or razor of your choice then get a clear coat on to lock it down If there is a slight ridge it will get leveled along the way with the clear

Jan 01, 10 | 11:05 am
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
The only color at this point is the amber shade of the shellac. I hope to get all the shellac on today so it can cure overnight, then start clear coats tomorrow. Thanks for the input.

Jan 01, 10 | 11:37 am
Dmac252

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Sounds great good luck

Jan 01, 10 | 1:27 pm
Dennis Weatherly

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Bindings have been scraped, taped and a third coat of amber shellac applied. Pulled the tape and everything looks really nice. I'm waiting for the reducer to activate in the EM6000 and it's time to apply top coat number one! I'll keep the sandpaper away until I have a couple of clear coats on.

Jan 02, 10 | 3:26 pm
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
I am using EM6000 for the top coat, with 10% retarder by volume. It is brushing beautifully using a DaVinci #50 brush. I've applied two thin coats so far, and will apply a few more before the first light sanding.

I'm curious: for those who have brushed EM6000, how many coats did you ultimately end up applying? My notes from Eban Atwater say 8 to 12.

Jan 02, 10 | 8:58 pm
Dmac252

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Your notee are probably correct, However remember each person is going to apply brushing with a slightly different amount of the lacquer. I would err on the high side because even with your best brush technique it will have some waves and this stuff sands very easily.

Jan 03, 10 | 2:35 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I am up to six coats now, but have not yet touched the finish with sandpaper. Comments on the Target Coatings forum suggest using 600 grit to avoid scratches that may show up under subsequent layers of finish. I am REALLY nervous about sanding through the clear, so will probably play it safe and not sand at all until I get around ten coats of clear applied. I typically apply very thin coats with a brush (it took me forever to get a decent fill on model airplane using butyrate dope) so I'd rather err on the side of too many coats!

I am really impressed with how easily EM6000 brushes. I do not know for sure whether this is due to the EM6000, the DaVinci brush or the combination of the two. All I know is that this combination works great!

Jan 06, 10 | 7:08 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Dennis, I would consider leveling prior to going further. I sprayed as opposed to brushed, and I shot 2 coats of shellac and 3 of EM6000 prior to leveling. I had no problems avoiding the shellac layers using 400 grit. It is easy to tell as the powder from the finish goes from white to off white if you hit the shellac. Very easy to follow progress if you are sanding dry, which is what I do. If you are going to sand with a lubricant, seeing your progress may be more difficult.

Ken

Jan 06, 10 | 8:19 am
Ken C

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Total Posts: 554
Actually, to avoid confusion, I wouldn't recommend any lubricant when leveling interim coats. Sand dry. Using a lubricant after the finish has cured a week is a different matter, but I still would level those coats by sanding dry. Then after the finish is leveled with your 600 grit, use a lubricant with the finer grits if you want.

Ken

Jan 06, 10 | 8:22 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Thanks for the input, Ken. I do all of my sanding dry, both so I can see better what is happening and so I don't accidently contaminate the wood. I am being cautious with the initial sanding because I used amber shellac, which has toned the top very nicely. I do not want to sand into the shellac! I have a few small spots that could use some light sanding, though, so I will probably pull out the sandpaper next. I have a feeling the first sanding is going to be like cutting the first binding channel :-)

Jan 06, 10 | 10:30 am
Ken C

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Dennis, Use a sanding block and stay away from the edges and you should have no problem. I don't know for sure, but I would think your brushed coats would be thicker than my sprayed coats. You will find that you'll have to work a bit with the 600 grit to level the finish. Just watch for any amber powder or amber spots on your sandpaper.

As for edges, I never touch them with sandpaper during interim coats, only just before buffing and then with very fine grit.

Ken

Jan 06, 10 | 11:27 am
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
Staying away from the edges at this point is a new tip for me. Thanks! The few little bobbles that I want to sand out are not on the edges, so that should work fine. I'll start with some fresh 400 grit and go slowly.

I would be curious to know whether my brushed coats are significantly thicker than a sprayed coat. I would have that so, but my past experience has shown that I tend to apply really thin brushed coats when compared to my sprayed finishes. Maybe I spray too much when I use a gun :-)

Jan 06, 10 | 12:05 pm
Ken Cierp

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Total Posts: 2262
The thickness of the coats depends on the "applier/brusher" my coats with a brush are much thicker then with a spray gun.

I do use a water and wet sand for leveling WB or nitro -- no lube -- this is what I was taught at the Williams Paint school here in Michigan --- it just speeds things up and I think the sanding is easier. However follow the coatings supplier's instructions.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est.1978

Jan 06, 10 | 12:15 pm
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
One of the reasons I dry sand these kinds of projects is that it slows me down. Wet sanding allows me to screw up more quickly :-) If I dry sand I may notice a problem before it's too late! I waste some sandpaper, too, but it's a trade off that I'll take.

Jan 06, 10 | 3:04 pm
Ken Cierp

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Total Posts: 2262
Yeah -- the paper savings is one of my considerations too. I think I mentioned this else were, I use pieces the pink foam insulation for my sanding blocks firm but forgiving. And you are correct, I am thinking "cool it around the edges" all the while in the process.

Ken

Jan 06, 10 | 3:20 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
May be time for a new thread, this one is getting huge!!

Dennis, what I do is level each flat surface right up to the edge, using a sanding block with plenty of pressure on the end of the block opposite the edge. That keeps me from rolling the sanding block over the edge and removing finish from the edge. Always level around the edge using a really good light, so you can monitor your progress with each pass of the sanding block. As I noted above, I never touch that edge line, though, during interim coats. You'll find that saving that edge line until the just before buffing will save you from sanding through the finish much less. I do the same for the crease at the neck heel. I'll level right up to it, but will not touch it during interim coats. Same for the heel cap.

I use a motorguard sanding block, which is pretty firm. I also have a corked block I will occasionally use.

If you plan on leveling with 400g, make sure you are planning on brushing another half dozen coats above it. I am slowly getting a better working knowledge of this finish, and I think 3 coats sprayed is not enough to hide the scratching left behind by 400 grit paper. Can't opine on 3 coats brushed.

Ken


Jan 06, 10 | 4:04 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Please keep this going! I'm gonna be right behind Dennis in a couple of weeks and wanna follow his lead :)

Jan 06, 10 | 4:31 pm
Dmac252

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If a new thread is started on this subject be sure to make a note hear

Jan 06, 10 | 5:29 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Nah ... just use the same thread and I'll make it a sticky.

Jan 06, 10 | 5:34 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Thanks for the input on hiding scratches with subsequent coats. I saw a similar comment on the Target Coatings forum. I may try leveling with 600 grit at first to see if that is enough. There is not much levelling to do - the surfaces were already pretty flat and the EM6000 has flowed out very nicely. I can always switch to 400 grit if 600 grit is not enough.

I use a hard felt sanding block for most of my sanding. I have a thinner one that is slightly flexible that works well on the neck. One nice thing about them is that if a corner of the block sneaks out from under the sandpaper it will not damage the finish.

Jan 06, 10 | 9:16 pm
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
Quick note on level sanding: I tried some 600 grit sandpaper on the back of the guitar after six brushed coats of EM6000. 600 grit was not coarse enough to do the job without excessive effort. I switched to 400 grit and that worked nicely, however it took the finish down VERY quickly. I stopped early rather than risk sanding into the amber shellac.

Jan 06, 10 | 10:36 pm
Ken C

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Total Posts: 554
Dennis, did you get the finish leveled before you stopped sanding? That first leveling is pretty aggressive, but with six coats, you should have plenty of finish to work with. I found not much sanding was needed between subsequent coats (again I'm spraying). I mostly cleaned up dust nibs with 600 grit paper prior to spraying the next coat. I then relevel the entire guitar with 600g before sanding with 800g followed by 1000g in preparation for polishing.

Ken

Jan 07, 10 | 4:46 am
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
I only did the leveling on the back, to see how it went. I got it pretty close to flat, but was getting more and more nervous as I worked. It stills needs some leveling after a few more coats. The top looks really smooth as it is, so I just knocked off the nibs there.

Jan 07, 10 | 7:16 am
deadedith

Total Topics: 34
Total Posts: 165
Dennis, what would be cool is, if you could kinda give a summary of the above in the form of 'here are the steps to this point.' It would be a lot of work for you, though, so I won't throw a hissy fit if you just don't have the time. :-)
Dave

Jan 07, 10 | 7:54 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Ok, but you asked for it!
1. Sanded all surfaces smooth and level to 320 grit.
2. Mask off the bindings if desired. Mask of bridge, neck and fretboard locations.
3. Brushed a quick protective coat of amber UltraSeal shellac on the top, then masked it off.
4. Applied four coats of HSF pore filler. Allowed each coat to set for a couple of minutes, then scraped off excess with a plastic squeegee at 45 degrees to the grain. Note: I had the best luck mixing HSF 1:1 by volume with silica to improve the fill. Sanded each coat back to bare wood with 320 grit.
5. Removed mask on top and left mask on bindings.
6. Removed bridge, neck and fretboard masks. Sanded off quick shellac coat to bare wood. Re-masked bridge, neck and fretboard locations.
7. Applied 4 coats amber UltraSeal shellac with DaVinci #50 brush. No sanding first two coats. VERY LIGHT sanding between coats 2 and 3 to remove obvious rough nibs.
8. Removed binding mask and cleaned up bindings.
9. Applied 7 coats (so far) of EM6000 with 10% retarder with a DaVinci #50 brush. Lightly leveled after 6 coats with 400 grit. I've done up to three coats in one day, lately just one per day.

That's where I'm at so far. I will probably level again after coat 8 or 9 and end up with 12-14 coats before I stop. That will depend on how it looks.

Jan 07, 10 | 9:15 pm
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
Forgot to mention that if you do a nice job on that protective shellac coat in step 3, and you don't get "stuff" on the top, you can skip step 6. Adjust number of coats in step 7 to get the fill/color/coverage you want.

Jan 07, 10 | 9:17 pm
Dmac252

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Total Posts: 28
any reason for the 3 coats a day and not more ??

Jan 08, 10 | 5:54 am
deadedith

Total Topics: 34
Total Posts: 165
Thank you Dennis.
If I'd known it was this simple and took so little time and effort I would have done it sooner. :-)
Just kidding, of course. It is quite the process and you deserve kudos for your efforts.
Dave

Jan 08, 10 | 6:41 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Too many coats and the finish traps moisture, leaving it looking hazy or blue. I did a guitar during the spring where I shot heavier coats and up to 4 a day. the finish didn't look hazy, but it did have a very blue cast to it that only disappeared after several months. I really wouldn't do more than 3 maybe 4 a day. I think above in this thread, Tim mentions the same, and only doing 4 if the humidity level is decent.

Jan 08, 10 | 6:54 am
Dmac252

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Hmmm, I have never has a blue tint problem I and I have been shot 4 to 6 coats a day. I have had couple have of what I would call witness problems 2 spots out of seven guitars. Trying to settle on a reasonable schedule for completing 3-4 guitars per month.

Jan 08, 10 | 7:24 am
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
In my case, the 3-coats-per-day is a combination of input from various sources who have much more experience with water-bourne products and the fact that I have a 3 daughters who want my attention :-) Gotta keep the family happy, too! 3 coats a day maximum seems to allow time for family and slow progress. Lately I've been busy with work as well, so I've slowed to one coat per day.

Getting the filling done was the hard part. I'd allocate a weekend to get that done. Then you can do the rest of the finish at whatever pace life allows.

Jan 08, 10 | 7:31 am
Ken Hundley

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Total Posts: 2169
I would expect a blue hazy tinge to any waterborne finish for months no matter whose it is. Seems to be the naure of the medium. It will definitely be more apparent if you coat in high humidity or over do the schedule.

Jan 08, 10 | 7:37 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Made it up to nine coats and decided to do some more levelling. Sanded with 400 grit and everything went very nicely, except one spot where I got a little carried away trying to level a drip. I ended up going through the lacquer and shellac to the mahogany on the side in one place :-( It's not too big and I've brushed a couple of coats of shellac on it already. It appears to be blending nicely. Thank goodness it wasn't on the spruce!

The few remaining drips were scraped level with a razor blade (as Ken C, I think, suggested earlier) and that worked much better. Put coat #10 on the top, back and neck. Will make sure the shellac is blended and dry before adding more lacquer on the sides.

Jan 12, 10 | 9:15 pm
GuitarLady

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 3
Thia is a great Post,& thank you I am new to all this.

How long does it take theEmtech 6000 to dry on a guitar?

Jan 14, 10 | 8:16 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Each brushed coat dries in a pretty short time. I've been waiting a minimum of 2-3 hours, but you might get away with going even quicker. Once the finish is fully applied I believe Target recommends allowing it to cure for something like 100 to 120 hours before buffing.

My experience with their shellac was that it dried even faster.

Jan 14, 10 | 11:16 am
Dmac252

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Total Posts: 28
The label states wait at least 30 minutes before reapplying, @ 70 degrees or above 1 hr between coats gives a good air out. If the drying area is below 70 then 1.5 to 2 hrs is better shouldn't be below 60/65 anyway to dry properly but real life sometimes pushes the envelope and the cooler the longer is the rule

Jan 14, 10 | 1:25 pm
Dennis Weatherly

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Total Posts: 651
The shellac repair blended in pretty nicely. I had put on three pretty heavy coats, so tonight I sanded and blended it into the surrounding finish with 600 grit. I worked VERY slowly so I didn't damage the repair! Once it was blended I wiped it with alcohol to clean the sanding dust and see how it looked. Applied one coat of EM6000 tonight and the repair is nearly invisible at this point. Whew!

Jan 14, 10 | 9:42 pm
Dmac252

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Total Posts: 28
I know what you mean Whew, I hate the new repairs. I recently did several transparent tobacco sunbursts any sanding through the color layer changes the whole game. Glad it's working out for ya

Jan 15, 10 | 2:27 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Dennis, sorry to hear you sanded through the finish. When leveling drop fills, I sometimes wrap the end of my sanding block with masking tape to keep me from taking material off with the ends of the block unintentionally. Also having really good lighting is critical so you can readily see the progress you are making. Glad the repair worked out well, though! Good show.

Speaking of drop fills, if I run across pinholes that the pore filler didn't get, I try to catch those about mid way through the process, say after the 6th coat. I'll fill the holes by dipping a toothpick into EM6000 and touching the pinhole. If I have deep holes, I'll go over the pin holes twice, then level, and try to get 4 to 6 coats above the fills. Once the finish is final leveled, it is pin hole free, perfectly level, and ready for buffing.

Ken


Jan 15, 10 | 8:16 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I finally made it! The last coat of EM6000 was brushed on this morning. I ended up with 14 coats total, to give plenty of coverage on the area I sanded through. Now the waiting begins until I can sand and buff it out. Target advises 120 hours (about 5 days). Does that sound reasonable or should I give it longer? I know that with KTM-9 I waited 3 weeks and it still seemed a little "soft". But when I level sanded the EM6000 after 8 coats it sanded very nicely with only a 48 hours cure.

Jan 18, 10 | 1:13 pm
Dmac252

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 28
You certainly don't have to do the 3 weeks But I would give it at least 10 days. What is your plan for sanding grit etc. and how are you planning to buff it out after the sanding ?

Jan 18, 10 | 1:49 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Dennis, if your coats are not uber heavy, 7 days is plenty. I think Jeff Weiss suggests 100 hours. A week is over 140 hours. I've had no problem after a week.

Ken

Jan 18, 10 | 2:52 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Sanding will start with 600 grit and progress up to 1500. Then I'll switch to Micromesh until it's as smooth as I can get it. I'll probably buff it by hand, using the three part package that I used on the KTM-9 finish. LMI sells the products: FCP cut polish, FFP fine polish and FSP swirl remover. These are liquids that can be applied with a hand held polisher or by hand.

Jan 18, 10 | 6:40 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Might go back to the beginning of this thread and take a look at Tim Metcalf's finishing and polishing schedules --- I think duplicating his fine work is what this post was mostly about. $.02

Ken

Jan 19, 10 | 3:46 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Thaks for the reminder, Ken. I'll try starting with 800 and see how it goes. Since I am not confident enough to use an RO sander at this point, I'll be sanding by hand. If the 800 is not coarse enough I can always go down to 600.

Jan 19, 10 | 7:23 am
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Dennis,
600 will level it faster but it will also require more work to clean up with with the finer grits....so less finish in the end and more potential to sand through.. But then again, I spray so it does not take much to level mine either.

Jan 29, 10 | 4:12 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Looks like I get to find out this weekend. It has been nearly two weeks since I applied the last coat, and I don't have to work this weekend (Yay!) Hopefully I can share some polished guitar part pictures by Monday.

I'll start with 800 grit and see how that goes. I can always drop back down to 600 if I need to do so. I should have enough finish on it if I don't get sloppy while sanding runs. There are around 7 brushed coats on it since the last sanding.

Jan 29, 10 | 6:37 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
I'm hoping to start the finishing this weekend or sometime next week and have some questions. Using HSF 5100 filler with silica and Emtech6000 for finish. I'll be brushing with the Davinci brush that everyone speaks highly of.
When I go to put on the filler, how much (little) do I need to take from the can for each coat? Same question when I go to seal (same 6000) and coat?
I can buy little dose cups or something.
I'm betting that it won't take the whole quart of either to do the finish, and I'd like to keep the left over material pristine as possible for later use.
Thanks,
Bob

Feb 05, 10 | 2:24 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I used about 150 ml of HSF and about 300 ml of EM6000 to do my 000-18. That provided four coats of filler and 14 brushed coats of finish. I also used about 100 ml of UltraSeal shellac between the HSF and the ME6000, to seal the filler and color the top.

Be sure to use the retarder if you're going to brush the finish. I used 10% by volume and that worked well in my temp/humidity levels.

Feb 05, 10 | 3:27 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Dennis, how much did you use at one given time. Like for today if you were doing 3 coats. How much would you pull out of the can for those 3 coats? Did you mix in the retarder each day or put in 10% for the whole batch?
Thanks,
Bob

Feb 05, 10 | 3:39 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I originally measured out 250 ml and added retarder. That provided ten coats with enough left for several more. But it had been out of the can for two weeks, so I mixed a little more for the remaining 4 coats.

I use the small plastic measuring cups sold at model airplane hobby shops to ladel out the EM6000. I think they are about 30 ml, and two of those will do a couple of coats for me. I have a reputation for putting on pretty thin brushed coats, so take that into consideration.

When working with finishing materials I always take some out of the main can and use it, or throw it away. I _never_ put used finish back into the original container with the fresh stuff.

Feb 05, 10 | 6:42 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Dennis, thanks. That hit the nail on the head for me. I can do about 3 guitars with this amount of finish. The other thing that had me concerned was consistency in the finish and retarder. I'll just put one guitar's worth in a batch and go from there. I figure if some goes bad, a slight change in the mixture toward the end would not be of concern.
Gracias,
Bob

Feb 05, 10 | 7:20 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Argh!!! Another set back. While working on fixing the sand-through on the back of the headstock, I decided to start polishing the body. I had sanded it with 800, 1200, 1500 and then foam-backed Abralon 2000 and 4000. Decided to use some thick foam buffing pads on my 5" RO sander. For compounds I used the 3-part polishing kit from LMI that I had used on the KTM-9 finished bass.

The first pass went pretty well and things looked good. The second part of the kit started to bring out a really nice shine. That's when I noticed that it was also softening the finish! This has cured for three weeks, so I was really surprised to see finger prints in the finish :-(

I am letting it sit now, in hopes that the finish will re-harden. Then I'll re-sand before switching to a different polishing compound, preferably something dry. Any recommendations on what to try? Or should I just switch to MicroMesh?

Feb 05, 10 | 9:32 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Dennis, I haven't gotten that far on mine, so asking a newbie question, could the buffing have created enough heat to soften the finish?

Feb 06, 10 | 8:03 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
It wasn't a heat issue. It was definitely a chemical reaction of some kind. I checked this morning and the softened finish has re-hardened. Also, I only applied the first step of the kit to the top, and it never softened. It seems to be the second step that caused the problem.

After pricing Menzerna dry compounds ($25 a stick - and I need three!) I have decided to go with MicroMesh and see how glossy that gets the finish. I bought the sanding pad kit, which has the abrasives on a foam pad which should work well on the neck and sides. I'll post my impressions and results once I have a chance to try it out.

Feb 06, 10 | 12:44 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Oh wow. Glad it hardened back for you, and hope the other steps work. I also just got the 3 polishing compounds from LMI. Kinda afraid to use them with the 6000 now. Good luck.

Feb 06, 10 | 2:30 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Dennis -- sorry to disagree but I would bet a "bag of Donut holes" that heat from the RO is what caused the finish to soften. The compounds and polishes by design have no solvents in their formulas.

I had good luck with Wizard line of compunds and polishes on the Target USL. I know DaveH used the Wizards products on his J200 in the show it off links.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Feb 06, 10 | 2:42 pm
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Dennis, are you using a high speed orbital or RO? I've used electric RO sanders to polish and have NEVER had a heat problem. I'm not sure what polishes you are using but I too suspect a chemical reaction. I've not gone back through all the posts so help me out...are you brushing or spraying? What sealer or base is under the ET? Retarder? I have found some polishes seem to etch the ET a little by just too long contact.....Stewmac #4 Swirl Remover is the worse so be very careful using it. I use the LMI cut and Mequires liquids along with MIRKA MIRROR POLISH

FWIW, I now use a foam buffing pad on my drill press at various RPM depending on the foam density and diameter. You can soften the finish using this method with the high heat you can generate.
Tim

Feb 07, 10 | 5:33 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
The finish is 4 coats of Target HSF, 3-4 coats of Target UltraSeal amber shellac and 14 coats of Target EM6000 with 10% Target retarder per instructions. Cured for over two weeks, then sanded 800, 1200, 1500 (all dry by hand), then 2000 Abralon and 4000 Abralon using the same RO sander before the polish was applied.

It is a Ryobi 5" random orbital sander. Pads are the thick foam-backed buffing pads from Woodcraft. Polishes were From the LMI three-part kit, which is their cut polish and two Meguier's products (both designed for plastic according to their packaging). It appears to be the Meguier's that is causing the problem.

I used these same polish products on my KTM-9 finished bass, but applied them by hand. I had no finish softening on that one.

I cannot really afford 3 sticks of Menzerna, so I've picked up a foam-backed MicroMesh kit. We'll see how well these work out. I have a couple of problem spots anyway (finish is looking REALLY thin) so I may end up re-sanding to 320 and re-finishing. Already had to do that on the back of the headstock.

Feb 07, 10 | 6:00 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
While RO sanders/polisher are very user friendly when used on large "metal" auto body panels that disipate most of the heat -- I still advise taking care not to let the polisher linger in one spot too long on a wood surface. "An onuce of prevention is better than a pound of cure."

Tim -- have you ever contacted Jeff over at Target for an explaination regarding the swirl remover? The polishing products mentioned here are made to be used with acrylics, if they etch the surface by simply being applied they (target) have a very serious design problem -- right?

You guys may be on to something really important and helpful to me and others, I look forward to the follow ups. Ken C ---- have you had any of these problems?

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978




Feb 08, 10 | 4:02 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I still have my test panels from when I was testing shellacs. If I have a chance, I'll apply some EM6000 to those as I re-finish the sides and then do some testing with the various liquid polishes that I have on hand. If there is a compatibility problem here I would really like to know about it.

I'll also post a question over on the Target forum and see what comes of it. I have the specific Meguier's product names at home so perhaps Target can shed some light on the issue.

Feb 08, 10 | 6:40 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Dennis,

Sorry, I hadn't looked at this thread in awhile. It had become so big, almost like a forum in itself, and it was especially slow to load on my hand held device, which is what I tend to use to browse the forum. I really wish when a new project is started with EM6000 that a new thread be started rather than added to this thread.

I have only used liquid polishes to buff out Target's finishes. So I can't provide any experience beyond that. I use Menzernas pre polish paste followed by a medium-light cut polish. I sand to 1000 grit by hand prior breaking out the polishes, which are applied using a pneumatic 4" polisher with foam pads. This is the same approach I have used on four guitars. I did have a problem with guitar #2 somewhat similar to what you describe. I used a couple of coats of EM8800 sanding sealer followed by EM6000. When I buffed out, I applied the pre-polish paste, which worked as planned. But when I used the medium/light cut polish, the finish would soften and develop a texture as if the polish was reacting with the finish. I have a bunch of Menzernas polishes I use for my cars, so I kept trying polishes until I found one that wouldn't react. I then had to go back over the area with pre polish paste and follow up with the different Menzerna's polish.

Heat can be an issue, but this certainly wasn't due to heat. I posted a note on Target's forum and exchanged some emails with Jeff. The only solution we could figure out was that the EM8800 and EM6000 layers had sort of blended, and I didn't have enough EM6000 above the EM8800. This kind of made sense as the sides and back eventually buffed out well, while the top, which had a half dozen less coats, never really buffed out well, so I later sanded it down and refinished it. But I really don't believe these water based finishes 'burn in', especially in the sense that nitro does. So I have since changed my mind as to what caused this the problems, and I now think the issue was lack of curing time.

Even though the finish had cured almost 10 days by the time I buffed it out., I believe the thickness of coats and frequency of application required that the finish cure a lot longer. This is why I believe this. The guitar that had the buffing issues ended up with a very bluish cast when buffed out. The most of any guitar I have done, and I have built and sprayed two that used much darker wood. The blue cast in that guitar eventually went away, but it took a couple of months. The EM8800 coats were put on heavily, and the EM6000 was sprayed in heavy coats as well. I also had a couple of days where I sprayed 4 coats. I had a problem with dimples appearing in the finish when I sprayed, and I found I had fewer if the coats were layed down very heavily, almost milky looking. Even though I waited over a week for the finish to cure, I think I had a lot of moisture trapped under the surface based upon that bluish cast, and it needed much more time than normal to cure. It was still a bit rubbery when I was trying to buff it out.

With the last guitar, I wanted to try to fix these issues, so I added a filter at the gun, which eliminated the dimples. I was then able to spray a finish just thick enough to look wet. After 5 to 7 days the finish was very hard, and it buffed out with zero issues. I also made sure I didn't spray more than 3 coats of EM6000 in a given day. My standard polishes worked fine on this guitar after a week of curing. I am now spraying my J-185 following the same protocol.

Regarding heat when polishing or buffing, I always spritz my foam pad with water prior to applying the polish. Also make sure you are using enough polish. Polishes have lubricants mixed with the cutting particles. You don't need a lot of polish, but you need enough that you just aren't spinning a foam pad with no lubricants against the finish, which will build up heat in a hurry.

Three weeks seems like plenty of cure time, even for a thicker finish. If you are using liquid polishes, assuming you had enough polish on the foam pad, heat shouldn't be an issue. I'd switch polishes, but I'm not sure I'd use a dry polish on a foam pad. I have only used pastes and liquid polishes on foam pads. Perhaps it is possible, but I think you'd need to keep an eye out for heat.

Ken

Feb 08, 10 | 8:02 am
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Dennis, I use the LMI cut and Mequire's 7 and 10 and have not seen any significant softening. Realize, as you generate heat to polish, the potential is there....but I've never seen the finish soften to the degree you mention.

I do not use retarder as I spray. I typically only apply one or two at most coats of UltraSeal and generally only cure for 100 to 130 hours although I have gone longer and shorter. I'm not saying what I'm doing is correct, or what you are doing is incorrect, just as a comparison so that we can figure out the problem.

As far as etching; I've found that if you puddle the polish in an area, and then stop, let's say answer the phone, the area under the puddle will be somewhat softened. I've never found that it can not be buffed out or had any significant problem with it. I suspect it's the water(solvent) base of the polish reacting with the 80%(or whatever) cured finish. Which leads to another question, how much does the retarder really add to the cure time?


Definitely report back any comments from the Target Forum. We need to figure this one out!

Feb 08, 10 | 8:06 am
GuitarLady

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 3
It says mix with paint filter what's that.what is a good brand?

Feb 13, 10 | 11:41 am
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Dennis, or anyone else. Is there a problem using a "Pad" (square) sander as opposed to a round RO sander?
Also, I just bought a "Micro mesh introductory wood kit" from Peachtree Woodworking Supply, which has 1 3"x4" sheet of each of the following grits: 1500, 1800, 2400, 3200, 3600, 4000, 6000, 8000 and 12,000. I got 2 sets of that, plus 10 sheets each of 800, 1200, and 1500 in a kit.
Is there a need to use all of these? Which can be skipped? Their part #'s are 306 and 97 respectively if anyone is interested.
Would it be better to sand with a block and go "in line" with the grain instead of using a sander?
Guess I'm gonna have a lotta 1500 grit left over.
Thanks.

Feb 17, 10 | 11:26 am
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
GuitarLady, I'm not following your question. Can you quote the entry that you're talking about?

Feb 17, 10 | 11:27 am
GuitarLady

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 3
Do I need to mix this stuffwith anything, I am new to finishing a Guitar

Feb 17, 10 | 1:21 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
I used the HSF5100 pore filler that I bought from Target (32 oz) with silica that I purchased from LMI. I used small measuring cups, the same size that you would use for a dose of cough medicine, and would pour 1 dose cup of pore filler and 1 dose cup of silica together and mix it up. Then I used a sponge type brush to put it on the back and sides, and a blue towel (you can get at an automotive store - I think it does not have any lint) to rub it in. Then wipe off the excess after a bit. Be sure to read some of the entries above this one about using silica. The dust is very fine and you can breathe it in if you are not careful.
For the Emtech 6000, I got it from Target along with a retarder that came from the same company. I mixed about 5 dose cups of Emtech 6000 to 1/2 dose cup of retarder (about a 10:1 ratio). I'm almost thru with about 15 coats and am running out of that mixture. I only bought a 32 oz can of the Emtech.
I brush on the mixture with a Davinci 5080 size 50 brush. After brushing it on, I rinse the brush in hot/warm water and use some of my wife's liquid soap to clean it a bit, then rinse again. I've been putting on 3 coats a day at least 2 hours apart. I didn't sand with 320 grit paper until after 6 coats. Now I lightly sand with 400 grit paper after each coat. I'm almost done. Whew.

Feb 17, 10 | 4:04 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
A week away from the polishing fiasco helped to clear my head. I took stock of the finish damage today and it was not as bad as I had feared. I cleaned off the little bit of polishing residue and found the finish was still solid. I had picked up a set of MicroMesh pads (foam with sanding surfaces on both sides) and I worked through the grits, using every step in the kit (it starts at the equivalent of about 600 grit paper). The results look really good. I much prefer the MicroMesh kit to using buffing pads and polishes, mainly because it is slower and easier for me to control. Overall it only took about 2 hours to polist the body and neck.

The headstock needs a little more finish on it, though. I had not noticed that I sanded a little too aggresively on it earlier, but it showed up as I polished. I'll fix that this weekend and let it cure while I am away on business next week.

Feb 18, 10 | 3:59 pm
Dmac252

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 28
POLISHING COMMENTS: I had similar issues with the polishing process. coming from a nitro background waterbase finishes took a bit of getting used to ( still a little bit here and there ). I still use buffing wheels to do my final polishing here's the story. I was doing a couple of tobacco burst guitars 3 to be exact. 1 Bass ( unassembled photos above ) and 2 acoustics Had a burst bug I guess, The bass in the end had no issues at all. It is an ash body with maple neck. I did not use any filler on this ( won't do that again) just trying to understand the build structure of the Target stuff. ** 3 sealer coats of targets amber shellac then the burst coats 4 good coats of the amber/tobacco recipe mixed in 6000. in all cases this is a transparent tobacco nor solid like Gibson. After that there are probably 30 coats of 6000 ( remember no filler ) 2 week dry time and sanding 800, 1500, 2000, the 2000 was done wet with not much effort. Went to the buffing wheels Being a creature of habit I used all three wheels course, medium, fine. I didn't have any problems I addressed it just like I would if I had been using nitro. *** Now the acoustics, It looked so good I figured I have this down now right ? Bzzzzzzz Not. Same under coat process for the bursts with 15 coats of 6000 clear. Get to the buffing and all sorts of stuff was happening to me. I was getting what looked very much like witness layering in several locations on both guitars, I recheck my schedule to see if I had missed something and all seemed to be in order, however my finishes looked horrible. SO being only 25 minutes from Target I took them down to see Jeff W. It was a head scratcher for sure since Jeff is a cabinet finisher and had less experience with guitars, in particular with buffing wheels, He suggested that I do a light alcohol wipe and that could possibly rejoin the coats ( that didn't work for me ) if any of you have done transparent bursts, once you take any of the color layers it cannot be matches unless you are very, very lucky, that being said I redid the bursts :(. The most important thing I think that Jeff said to me was that with the Target products finishing LESS is MORE. So once I got back to the wheel stage, I thought a bit , being a little gun shy now, I elected to skip the course wheel and go right to medium, I did have a few scratcked that I missed in sanding ( how does that happen ) so my choice was to go back to the sand paper or give the course wheel a quickie. I chose the wheel. All in all it worked out just great.

All this to say that although I continue to used the wheels my approach/touch is quite different ( less is more ) I do not lean into the wheel at all like I did with nitro in fact I move the body around very lightly and move around quickly. The results have been fantastic. So for my analysis I am going with the the heat as the culprit. For me I think it was not so much witness lines and much as just pealing hot spots. I would suggest that with any machine don't move too slowly with thin coats on the thin acoustic woods it will tend to heat more quickly than on the thick electric body where the heat can be absorbed ( to a point of course )

That's my 2 cents worth

top 2 look a little grainy but I assure you they are not









Feb 19, 10 | 4:11 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Very nice looking guitars! That was one of the first lessons I learned using a wheel.....keep it light and keep it moving. You just want to skim it across the surface to create some friction, no pressure at all is required. Going to slowly will definitely pull it up.

Feb 19, 10 | 9:54 am
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
What kind of effort would it be buffing by hand? Other than that, the only thing I have is a drill to which I could attach a buffing wheel. I could lightly skim a guitar surface that way.

Feb 19, 10 | 11:33 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
My recent experience with MicroMesh showed that it wasn't very difficult at all to get a really nice shine by hand. I think it would take a pass with some fine compound to get to the same shine as those examples. But that can be done by hand as well.

I'll try to get a picture posted. The guitar isn't done, but the body will show what can be accomplished all by hand.

Feb 19, 10 | 12:50 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Here are a couple of pictures of the body for my 000-18. The finish is 4 coats of Target HSF with silica added (1:1), 4 coats of Target UltraSeal amber shellac, and 14 coats of Target EM6000. All were brushed on. Sanded to 600 grit, then switched to MicroMesh 1500 thru 12000. All sanding by hand.





Feb 19, 10 | 2:10 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Dennis those are stunning.
How many sheets of each grit do you think it took?

Feb 19, 10 | 4:34 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
I used around 5-6 sheets of 400 and the same of 600, both wet or dry. I sanded dry and changed the paper often.

The MicroMesh kit is amazing. I used one of the $20 kits from Rockler - one small sheet of each grit from 1500 to 12000 (those are their numbers, which are different than typical snadpaper grits. Their 1500 is about 600 grit). MicroMesh seems impervious to clogging.

Feb 19, 10 | 4:55 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Great, in my post above, I talked about ordering 2 kits of micro mesh. Whew. I was afraid it would take an abundance of the stuff. Was beginning to think that $300 isn't a bad price for a professional finish.

Feb 19, 10 | 5:30 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
This is the kit I used. I chose the 3x4 pads, which have abrasive on both sides. I think the 5" round pads are only abrasive on one side.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=11435&filter=micromesh

Feb 19, 10 | 5:44 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Very similar to the kit I got. Hope mine are double sided.

http://www.ptreeusa.com/microMesh.htm

Thanks Dennis, you're giving me more confidence.
I think my finishing is starting to bear fruit. I've somehow eliminated most of the pinholes or fisheyes that I saw yesterday. I "overdosed" some sections of the back and sides and came back and sanded them down. I just put a coat on and the back looks very very "flat" or levelled. Not seeing much bad stuff at all. Probably wore thru the coats a good bit, so I'll do 4-6 more this weekend and put it out to dry.
Thanks for your help and input.
Bob

Feb 19, 10 | 6:45 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
I posted pics in my build topic, but thought I'd put one here. My schedule was: 2 coats of HSF 5100 pore filler with a 1:1 ratio of silica. I didn't do a very good job on it, because I noticed later a large number of pores left unfilled. I put down 6 coats of Emtech 6000 with 10% retarder and only lightly sanded, and then lightly sanded after the next 4 or 5 coats. It was then that I discovered that I hadn't been levelling very well, and got pretty agressive at that point, using 320 grit. The finish started levelling pretty well after that using 400 and 600 grit, but since I figured that a number of coats had bit the dust, put down probably another 10 coats or so. The pores filled pretty well, especially the back. Once it's cured and buffed out, it should look fairly nice.
There are probably 19 to 20 coats on this, but since I probably killed 4 or 5 coats with the first real levelling, it should add to about 15.



Bob

Feb 21, 10 | 7:17 pm
MetcalfGuitars

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 68
Looks good Bob....all but that FL..... shirt. (I'm a VOL) :)

Feb 24, 10 | 2:14 am
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
My daughter's ex-boyfriend. I knew I forgot to burn something. We're the other, burnt orange, Hook 'em.

Feb 24, 10 | 4:07 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Good rag for wiping stain......LOL

Feb 24, 10 | 3:03 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Is this better?



I knew that other one would be good for wiping something.

Feb 24, 10 | 3:25 pm
David Bolin

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 28
Bob,

Are you spraying or brushing? I've ordered a quart of EM6000. Going to try it on top of epoxy filler. Had second thoughts about KTM-9.

David

Feb 26, 10 | 4:03 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
I brushed, David.
I put on possibly 20 coats, but I didn't pore fill very good. Plus I didn't level very well at first. I didn't understand what I was looking for when levelling.
When I finally did get it to level out after about 10-12 coats, it was by agressive sanding with 320 I think. Then, I light sanded every coat after that.
My sanding probably killed 5-6 coats. So the end result was about 15 coats.
I got best results by covering about 1/2 the top or back, then lightly brushing in 1 stroke along the grain from one end to the other. Then coated the other half and did the same. Then, I would do the sides in 5 steps. From neck joint thru to waist, then about 2/3's from there to the back, then from neck to waist on the other side, then the 2'3's, finally the tail end of the sides. My last coat went on last Sunday.
For an update, I am micro-meshing the neck tonite, and it's coming out so well. It's starting to pop. I also did the top and a little bit of one of the sides. They're looking good too.
I used between 1/3 and 1/2 the quart of 6000.

Feb 26, 10 | 4:49 pm
David Bolin

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 28
I just read this entire thread. I'm worn out. Should have been taking notes. What I remember is:

-Three or four coats per day about one hour apart for a total or twelve or more.
-Don't sand the edges. Level edges lightly before last couple coats.
-Level dry with 800 grit if possible. 400 or 600 if several more coats will be applied.
-Finish up with micromesh kit and polish as needed.

Did I leave anything significant out? I need to order the micromesh kit. I'm going to try to spray, but I haven't sprayed anything since painting a few cars in high school about a hundred years ago.

David


Feb 26, 10 | 6:17 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Check out this place, Peachtree Woodworking Supply. I got my micro-mesh from them. Reasonable. I got 2 of their starter kits.
Also, I was thinking 15 coats or so.
I never could get any 800 grit anywhere here in Nacogdoches, so I levelled with 400 and then 600 for the last 5-6 coats.
I've asked on another thread about using the polishes that I have, but no one has responded. Love to know whether to use them after micro mesh, and what type of cloth I could use with them. I'm hoping a tee shirt.
Also, how did your pore filling go? Easy to work? Hard? Lemme know.
Good luck, I'm going to try spraying next time too.
Bob
ps. one last thing, cover the sound hole. You might put a balloon inside it and blow up the balloon until it covers the hole.

Feb 26, 10 | 7:07 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
I am going to do this for the third time -- I recommend that you go back to Tim Metcalf's posts at the being of this thread it is his (Tim's) fine work that got our attention --- He has posted his schedule, grits, compounds and polishes I don't believe "micro mesh" is mentioned. I've never used it ("MM") or had a need for it, considering all the products that do the same thing can be found in a bottle or can at the auto paint store in your area for pennies.

I've followed a very similar schedule to Tim's using the old USL from Target --- it works! -- If it's not broken don't fix it!

$.02 Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978


Feb 26, 10 | 7:24 pm
David Bolin

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 28
Bob,

The epoxy is easy to work with but I'd like to try something next time that I can sand down to bare wood. We'll see how it works with EM6000.

Ken,

I'll read back through all the posts again this weekend.

David

Feb 27, 10 | 7:41 am



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