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Pore Filling Techniques Needed
Author
Post
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3594
I'm interested in hearing the details of everyone's pore filling techniques. For the life of me, I have not been able to get a really good pore filling on any guitar I've built.

How 'bout it? Can you guys describe in detail what you do, that works well for you?

Shellac, water based, solvent based, etc., etc. ... ?

Thanks --
Bill

Sep 27, 08 | 5:55 am
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
This is a great topic. Early in my building I tried everything I could to get a good result with not the most repeatable success. For my technique , I found most of my early mistakes were ones of lack of patience.
I like to use mineral based fillers . Pore o paq is my filler of choice. I make about 3 tablespoons at a time in a margarine dish . To this I will add my color to match the wood I am working on. I will also add a few drops of naphtha for every spoonful to aid in flashing.
I will do my staining and sealing before filling . Then I use a plastic putty knife and work the filler in once with the grain , then once the filler flashes off , I rub across the grain with a coarse material. Burlap or denim . Don't rub too hard , what you want to see is little balls of filler form and what you actually are doing is pushing this into the voids.
I do this twice , once with the grain and once against. I do let the filler dry , usually a day between coats and will use a 3M pad between coats. After the 2nd fill process I like to get under a bright light and look for any voids I may have missed.
Once I am happy and the filer dries I will sand with 420 lighty and seal. I now can address and obvious voids, as they stand out well under a skin of sealer or finish, I will drop fill the obvious ones and start my lacquering.
john hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized Martin Repair Center

Sep 27, 08 | 9:24 am
Hugh

Total Topics: 16
Total Posts: 309
I've worked on pore filling almost exclusively for about a year, because I'm worst at that . I'm mostly retired so I can take that time. I still get inconsistent results, but most things I do better than before. In my experience all fillers need more coats than indicated. Sometimes I think I get good results just because I've done the board 5 or 6 times, or more, and given up; then the next time it works.
I've had bad luck sanding it back with a random orbit sander, better luck with 320 paper on a hard flat block. If the sandings are not glassy but a little gummy, then it's not dry enough and it pulls out. If you put it on too thick it takes forever to sand back. Different fillers dry at a significantly different rates.
With mahogany, which is one of the worst, I think, I sand the board to 220; seal with shellac flakes twice; fill at least 3 times; seal with Zinssers sanding sealer; and then do the finish. Sand back after every step.
I've used Behlens water based, pore o pac, Crystal Lac, and Bartley oil based with roughly the same results, except that they dry at different rates. Most recently I liked Crystal Lac.
I've also used super glue. I put wax paper over a squeegee so it doesn't stick and go to town. It's tricky and messy, but it fills pores. I understand that some finishes don't stick well to it. I haven't experimented with that.
If you use the 9 coat lacquer finish procedure, it also adds a little to the filling. Martin's tour video even admits that.
I'm ready to do one now and I really hope my advice works for me. It's a little like when you first string one up and you're secretly afraid the whole guitar will implode.



Sep 27, 08 | 9:35 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
I would have to agree with John Hall, “Pore o Pac” would be at the top of my list. This product has been around for a long time for a good reason --- it works. Since I rarely use stain, my process differs from John’s a little. I sand to 400 always with the grain, apply a wash coat of sanding sealer (50/50). Than apply the “Pore o Pac” according to the directions on the can. I use the pore filler color that matches the color of the wood pores, which is always darker than the wood itself. Now, the reason for the wash coat is to seal the surface so the color/stain in the filler does not stain the wood, we only want the darker color in the pores. It usually takes two filling sessions – invariably a little filler will be pulled out during wipe down and subsequent light sanding. I learned the heard way that Nitro lacquer does not like to be applied over an oil based product that is not completely dry ---- so I wait at least two days before applying a few coats of lacquer sanding sealer. I like Sherwin Williams, Deft, and Mafadden’s. I let that dry for several days then sand that back to bare wood before applying top coats.

I have also used straight heavy (many) coats of lacquer sanding sealer --- no paste filler. Lots of product is used and wasted -- I think many brain cells are lost as well! There is time spent sanding off the layers of sealer to get back to bare wood, it easy to sand by design. The results are that the top coat seems to have much more depth using this process vs paste fillers.

I believe the failure to wait for the filler and topcoats to completely shrink back have caused many a headache for finishers. If I ever get into producing finished instruments again I will most certainly be investing in infrared or three-part polyester finishing ---- almost instant gratification!

Ken

Sep 27, 08 | 11:26 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Okay, so Pore-O-Pac is good stuff. Thanks John and Ken. I found it on the Woodcraft site and it's a Behlen product.



What about others?
Target Coatings pore filler?
LMI's filler?
Shellac?
Anyone used those who wants to throw in their experiences? Good and bad?

Bill

Sep 28, 08 | 5:52 am
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
one of the great things about this product is that it allows you to tint the base. I have used both the colored and the natural. With the natural base you can use minwax stains to tint the filler.

Sep 28, 08 | 7:16 am
jack226

Total Topics: 6
Total Posts: 60
Pore filling is the bane of my building existence! I just am doing the final finish on a dred EI rosewood and even after three coats of CA glue as pore filler and one coat of SM waterbase, I still have pores showing (final finish = 18 coats of sprayed Target water based finish). I think John's comment about patience ring very true and I vow that my next build (Norman Blake 000 EI Rosewood) will not have any pore filling issues (Hopefully :))

Jack

Sep 28, 08 | 11:40 am
jhowell

Total Topics: 37
Total Posts: 676
I'm using Z-Poxy, now after using pumice on number one. I mix a dab of Z-Poxy in the little paper condiment cups from the fast food places. You can purloin a few :) or buy a three times lifetime supply from CostCo for $6. I mash it in (literally) with the plastic credit card facsimiles that seem to swamp the mail. I use criss-cross strokes 45 degrees to the grain. I use a lot of down pressure. I then sqeegee the excess to the next area with the card, usually working 6 by 6 inch squares. I let it dry over night and then sand back to bare wood. I always have to do this twice, sometimes three times on difficult areas. I sand the last application very carefully back to bare wood, leaving the filled pores intact. I then pad a coat of 1 to 1 1/2 # cut shellac on for a seal and to pop the grain.

Sep 28, 08 | 12:54 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
On my base I used System III epoxy and their silica powder. I followed Mike Doolin's finishing schedule (which I found on the LMI web site). I found that the Swamp Ash top on my bass, which was quite porous, took three coats to fill all the pores.

I sanded the wood up to 320 grit. Then I mixed the epoxy resin and hardener, then added silica powder to get a consistency similar to whipped cream. I squeegee'd this onto the wood across the grain, using a plastic phoney credit card from the junk mail. The idea is to force the mixture down into the pores and scrape as much as possible off the top of the wood. Once it has cured, I re-sanded smooth using 220 sandpaper. Repeat until the pores are filled - 3 coats, in my case. I then shot KTM-9 right on the epoxy for the color and finish.

I found the biggest hassle with the epoxy products was that it was slow. I could only do one side at a time, then it took hours (I usually waited overnight) before I could do the next side. So the bass body would take 2-3 days to get one full coat of filler.

Sep 28, 08 | 9:52 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Egg White:
I ran into a classical guitar builder on Saturday at Scott Baxendale's shop in Denver who uses egg whites. He whips them a little bit, he said, to liquefy them and get rid of the "clumpiness." Then he just spreads it on just like any other pore filler. When it has dried, he sands down to the wood. If it needs to be done again, he does it again. I saw some of his work and it was smooooth.

Wonderfill:
Baxendale uses this stuff, from Rockler Tools, exclusively. His work is really nice, but it take about 8 applications of lacquer before the pores fill perfectly and level down.

Shellac:
Another guy there, who makes bouzoukis, puts shellac on the surface and then, he said, he "Sands the hell out of it with a random orbit sander." His work is also really smooth.

Seems like everybody develops their own way of working. I'm still looking for mine.

Sep 29, 08 | 3:50 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Behlen's Pore o' Pac is good stuff, but I wasn't sure how it would work with my water based top coats, so I used Target Coatings' High Solids Pore filler on my OMC. This was my first use of a water based pore filler. I got it working, but I am not much of a fan. I applied as directed, using a squeegee at an angle to the grain. However, after about 6 or 7 applications, my mahogany looked about like it did when I started. I switched to a more flexible squeegee, which seemed to help. After about another half dozen applications, I had about 99% fill.

I sanded back to wood after each application. After doing this over a dozen times, I swore I would never use the stuff again. However, once done, my Target Coatings' Ultima Spray Laquer covered very nicely. I did have some shrinkage in the pore filler, which was most noticeable when the humidity dropped in the house at one point during the summer. In comparing the finish to that of other guitars professionally finished, the shrinkage wasn't as bad as originally thought. I may have had a bit more shrinkage, but not by much.

Behlen also makes a water based pore filler, which I am tempted to try the next time around. I would love to hear of builders' experiences with this filler.

Ken

Sep 30, 08 | 5:35 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
I too used the system III pore filler, and found that not much more than a tablespoon fool was needed per coat. I measured my amounts usign a small mail scale set for grams, and found getting the right mix absolutely easy using that method. Other ways I had tried resulted in the wrong ratio.

After the epoxy was mixed well enough, I transferred it to another cup, mixed it some more, then mixed in the silica to thicken it up. I actually mix enough in so that it is the consistency of soft butter, rather than whipped cream, and get a slightly better fill. I have found that on rosewood, i just barely need a second coat, but do it anyway. I use either a shower squeegee or an old credit card for smoothing it on, and scrape nearly all of it off. I work diagonal to the grain, and angle the card slightly off the direction I am travelling, so that the filler sloughs off to the side of the card in the direction I am progressing. Very seldom do I get ridges in the finish this way.

When it dries, usually in half a day if the mix is right, I use a fresh;y burnished razor to very lightly scrape the surface free of ridges, then apply a second time. Once completely dry, I scrape again, then sand to 220.

When porefilling Tru-oil, I used the Tru-oil porefiller that was available. The first coating I tried did absolutely nothing, it seemed. The second and third coats I mixed with the same silica used with the System III, which worked very well. very smooth neck afterwards.

Dennis...when I pore filled my electric gutiar, I made a temporary neck, basically a handling stick that fit the neck joint and bolt holes. I put the stick in a vice, and would work one side at a time. Then, I would flip the guitar over, reclamp the handling stick, and work the next side, and so forth. To dry the guitar, I hung it, and was able to do all sides in the same session. you might want to try that next time. If you don't have a vice, you could clamp the handling stick to a table or bench and let the guitar body hang over the side in free space. Work what you need to, then unclamp and rotate, reclamp, and continue working it.

Sep 30, 08 | 5:49 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Uh, I may be a fool, but I did mean to say "Tablespoon full" up there at the top.

Sep 30, 08 | 5:50 am
Ed

Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 41
Like jhowell I'm using Zpoxy. I pretty much do the same thing he does except I cut the Zpoxy to 50% with Everclear for my first two coats then I use full strength Zpoxy for two coats.
Regards,
Ed

Sep 30, 08 | 12:58 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Ed, that certainly makes the zpoxy more drinkable......;)

Sep 30, 08 | 3:20 pm
Norman

Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 26
I am finishing up the fretboard and ready to order my finishing materials. The content of this forum subject has been exactly what I needed. My conclusions are System III or Z-poxy for the pore filling and KTM-9 finish by brush.

I do have questions, my build is a classical from LMI, should I finish gloss or satin? I like gloss but have no experience with what the result will be on spruce and rosewood. Should I use French Polish for the top instead of KTM-9?

I tried to read the Mike Doolin article on LMI, but it would not come up. Has anyone else had this problem?

Thanks to all of you for all the great information. If you have any comments or suggestions, I will be happy to read them.

Norm

Sep 30, 08 | 6:11 pm
Hugh

Total Topics: 16
Total Posts: 309
Bill, did you see what the guy used over the egg whites? It tried it some time ago and it looked good, but I had trouble with the next coat.

Sep 30, 08 | 7:59 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Norm, I used Mike Doolin's whole finishing process on my electric bass guitar with good success. I was spraying the KTM-9, so I cannot comment on how brushing it will work.

As an FYI, my guitar will not have that same finish on it. While the process works really well, I do not like the fact that KTM-9 doesn't burn into previous coats once they have had some time to cure. If you can arrange to do all of your finishing work in a short period of time then there is no problem. But if you have to take a break for a few days (or longer) then there is a risk of witness lines if you sand through a layer of the finish. I had one spot where that occurred - thankfully, it wasn't too obvious.

Target Coatings water-based lacquer is reported to burn into previous layers just fine. I am going back and forth between that product and Tru-Oil over shellac. Not sure which one will win at the moment :-)

Sep 30, 08 | 9:19 pm
Ed

Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 41
Ken,
I like to think of it as a "stick to your ribs" drink.
Regards,
Ed

Oct 01, 08 | 12:38 am
Norman

Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 26
Ed: What is Everclear?

Norm

Oct 01, 08 | 4:17 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Doolin no longer uses the KTM-9

Ken

Oct 01, 08 | 4:52 am
Norman

Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 26
Dennis: I will look into Target.

Ken: That must be why the link on LMI doesn't work.

Norm

Oct 01, 08 | 5:02 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Hey Norm, satin or gloss really is a preference issue. In my opinion, however, a satin finish could present a higher maintenance issue. Sure, it won't show finger prints or minor scratches like gloss will, but EVERY satin finish will have a tendency to show high usage areas, where your arm or hands tend to rub. It will polish its self in those high wear areas and slowly become more glossy than other areas that rarely see contact. Gloss can always be polished. What do you do with satin? If the wood ever needs a repair, as well, I think it will be more difficult to blend in.

Oct 01, 08 | 5:52 am
Norman

Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 26
Ken, thanks for the info. I was leaning to gloss.

Norm

Oct 01, 08 | 5:59 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Hugh: "Bill, did you see what the guy used over the egg whites? It tried it some time ago and it looked good, but I had trouble with the next coat."

He put a coat of 1 lb shellac over the egg and finished over that.

Oct 01, 08 | 6:18 am
Ed

Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 41
Norm,
Everclear is the most pure form of grain alcohol, 95% pure, available. It doesn't have the additives denatured alcohol does. I use it to make my shellac for french polishing. I don't know that it really works any better but it smells better to me and I can get it for about the same price as Hock denatured alcohol.
Regards,
Ed

Oct 01, 08 | 12:52 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Norman,

I have had great success with Target's Ultima Spray Lacquer. Finished a guitar using it late spring. The finish appears to be holding up well, and the guitar gets played several times a week. I posted more comments about using the lacquer in my Show It Off thread, but I can provide more specifics if needed.

Ken

Oct 01, 08 | 2:51 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Ken is correct that Mike Doolin is no longer using KTM-9. Mike told me that most of his clientele prefer a conventional lacquer finish, so he has upgraded his spray booth and ventilation equipment to handle the chemicals involved.

Norm, I checked the links on the LMI page for KTM-9 and it does look like they have taken down the Mike Doolin page. I read through the John Greven schedule that is also listed there and it is virtually the same. John's shop is only about a 15 minute drive from Mike's, so I suspect they share information often :-)

Oct 01, 08 | 10:07 pm
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
I used behlens aerosols. You need to be aware of the solids content of the mix. To get a good finish you need a higher content. I use mohawk or macfaddens.
Remember that it lacquer is as much a process as it is a finish.
john hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized Martin Repair Center

Oct 02, 08 | 4:17 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Norm -- I have the Doolin information on KTM-9 as a PDF. Click my name at left and send me your email; I'll send the PDF to you if you still want it.

Bill


Oct 02, 08 | 5:33 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Norm -- I went ahead and sent the info to you at your normpeg12 email address.

The one time I used Mike's techniques with KTM-9, I got a pretty good finish on my Stewmac Dread -- second guitar built. It would have been "very" good if I hadn't screwed up the sanding and left visible scratches under the last round of top coats.

Oct 02, 08 | 5:42 am
Andy

Total Topics: 57
Total Posts: 350
Is Colortone Waterbased Filler a waste of time ?

Oct 09, 08 | 8:42 pm
Norman

Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 26
Bill: Thanks for the KTM-9 article. I have read it and will save it. Since I am building a classical I have decided to French Polish and will be starting tomorrow, I hope.

Your forum has been significant help to me during this first building project. Those who have responded to my queries both here and on Robbie's site have all provided info that has helped me suceed.

I believe it would be extremely difficult for a newbe to build a guitar without the support of all of you.

Thanks to all who read this.


Oct 10, 08 | 3:44 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Norman -- Thank YOU for being here. That's why this place exists. As G.K. Chesterton said:

"We are all in the same boat on a stormy sea, and we owe to each other the most terrible loyalty."

Oct 11, 08 | 5:23 am
Brian Burns

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 5
Hello All,

Pore filling--a subject near to my heart! I'm on my 13th, or is it 14th (?) different filler, and this over about as many years. The holy grail for me is a clear fill that doesn't alter the natural look and color of the grain.

The egg white filler suggestion reminded me that the latest material I have considered is hot hide glue. There is a mention of its use by Spanish builders in Granada on the LMI website. I have a customer for my Planetary Pegs in Granada, and I asked him about it, but it's been several months, and no reply. Hide glue is a protein like egg white, so I imagine that the results would be similar.

Eugene Clark and Jeremy Locke both say that it will cause shellac to craze if it is left on the surface, but Jeremy and Al Carruth allowed that it might be OK if it's just down in the pores. One tempting thing about it is that it wouldn't pull color from rosewood on to the purfling.

Anyone have any experience with it?

Cheers,

Brian Burns


Dec 09, 08 | 3:16 pm
Terry

Total Topics: 41
Total Posts: 220
Welcome to the forum Brian...

I've never used hot hide glue for that purpose... sounds difficult to me... It's been my experience(much more limited than yours) that nearly any medium will work to the extent you state if one has the patience... that's been my problem so far...lack of patience.

Again welcome... we'll look forward to your experience added to the rest of us!

Terry

Dec 10, 08 | 1:25 pm
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
Pore filling
Ken I tried the water and the solvent based filler once. Both flash too fast and were gloppy. The pore o pack is fine with water based finished , just be sure to use a sealer coat.
For those that have trouble filling , I found this technique that works for me.
I don't fill the whole guitar at one time , but will do one side at a time and then the back.
I use a small container like a margarine cup. I use about 3 table spoons. I will stain this to the color that I want. I mix this up till it is not unlike hersheys syrup. To this I will add 1-2 drops if naphtha per tablespoon. This will aid in the flash time.
I will use a plastic putty knife and will work this in with the grain. The shine will disappear and look dull. At this point I will use denium or burlap and rub the filler into the wood in a circular fashion. I let set over night and repeat the process only this time against the grain.
After the 2nd application I like to scuff with a scotch pad ( green ) or 0000 steel wool. I know inspect the surface in sunlight or under a bright halogen. Florescent light won't show up the imperfections like natural or halogen.
If I need to apply another coat I will. When you buff up the filler you want to see little balls of filler form. The big key is to learn the right time to get on the filler. Too soon and you wipe the filler off and not in. Too late and it is too think to work in well.
Once I am happy I seal the filler and proceed to the finish. Once you master the filling and level sanding you are on your way to being a finisher.
john

Dec 10, 08 | 8:10 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
John's method will work perfectly!! Try it you will like it.

I find this thread very interesting from another viewpoint. Even though I am an inventor of sorts -- my background compels me to use proven methods and products. Especially if the results are superior and predictable. The Japanese learned this early on and it is perhaps the main reason they are kicking our butts (USA) in the auto industry. So my question would be, if we know that the pore filling method used by many long standing manufacturers and countless custom shops works perfectly – why would it be necessary to experiment with drywall paste, eggs whites, hide glue etc. My personal end game is to try and match the factory finish of Martin guitars, perhaps the best lacquer finish in the world today. So I try and copy what they do. We know from time and experience if the results “are not right” it is for sure an operator problem --- because over tens of millions of products the results were indeed, as expected. I am not trying to be condescending but I simply don’t understand why time and energy would be used for any thing else but perfecting a method based on know professional products and known and expected results. Is it cost, availability? Looking for the silver bullet? (in the long term how would you know for sure?) Just curious.
Ken

Dec 11, 08 | 8:23 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
You make an interesting point, Ken. In practice, your techniques will undoubtedly lead to a repeatable, good finish with pores filled nicely.

But, as I see it, the only logical flaw is this: Experimentation is the heart of progress; if Martin hadn't experimented (as some here are doing) we would all still be using egg whites or shellac.

So, I don't blame people for trying new things and sharing their techniques. We all eventually get around to something that works for us. (Hopefully.)

Just my penny's worth.

Dec 11, 08 | 8:30 am
Brian Burns

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 5
Hi Ken,

My preference, for purely visual aesthetics, is for a clear filler that doesn't obscure the natural beauty of the wood, particularly the Spanish cedar and mahogany used in the neck. The paste fillers (and stains?) used by Martin give a uniform appearance to the necks, but to my eye they look as though they were smeared with paint before top coating.

A French polished neck is remarkably more beautiful, in part because the natural color and texture of the pores, and areas surrounding the pores, comes through undistorted. The traditional French polish fill is shellac and pumice, but the skill of making it work eludes me. So, that is my reason for searching for a different filler than traditional ones.

Cheers,

Brian Burns

Dec 11, 08 | 8:38 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
I get that -- so the reward is more than a good finish -- its "your" good finish. I suppose my view is from a more commercial standpoint (years in industry does that to us). "Time is money", warranty etc. Again I don't blame anybody for anything --- trying, sharing is good -- I was missing the end game goal a "personalized finish".

Ken

Dec 11, 08 | 8:47 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
For the natural look clear fillers I have used multiple coats of the following, all sand back easily and have minumum shrinkage

Sherwin Williams -- Sher-wood lacquer sanding sealer

Mcfadden's --- R-1820 High Solids Sanding Sealer

Deft --- Lacquer Sanding Sealer

All these products are part of a lacquer system and there are no compatibility problems.

I have also had very good results with Target Water borne clear high solids filler. Brain, I am with you -- I seldom stain any part of the musical instruments I build.

Ken

Dec 11, 08 | 9:36 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Ken -- Since you have recently gotten into producing finished guitars, your procedures have become standardized. But before, when you were just starting to create kits, etc., you were actively testing quite a few finish techniques. The list in your post above is an example.

I don't think it's that people just want their own "good finish." I think it's that they want a finish that fits their working facilities, skills, capabilities, desires, etc., and will result in a good finish for them. There are more ways to achieve that than the Martin technique, as you have proven with your low-power UV finish from a year ago, your finishing kit from Target Coatings that you were going to send out with kits, etc.

Dec 11, 08 | 10:58 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Yeah -- I have experimented with different "systems" that are out there but I am not very (at all) as adventurous when it comes to home brew stuff or old fashion stuff. Sort of tried and true -- no risk -- most cost and time effective. Interestingly when all is said and done -- for me a nitro lacquer system meets my requirements the best. I really wanted to use the Target system, it is very good, but for me anyway -- invisible repairing Water borne is a whole new skill set.

Ken

Dec 11, 08 | 11:26 am
Brian Burns

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 5
Hi Bill and Ken,

Hey, whazzis? Low powered UV finish? I've steered away from the UV finishes because of equipment costs and toxicity of the finishing materials. Tell me more!

Cheers,

Brian

Dec 11, 08 | 11:30 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Keep in mind Brian, Ken Cierp is a producer, not a hobbyist, so the UV method makes sense for ohis business. Probably not for us unless cost is less important than the experience and good times.

Dec 11, 08 | 2:17 pm
Brian Burns

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 5
Hi Ken,

I'm a full time guitarmaker and teacher of guitarmaking. so I'm always interested in making the process faster, provided that there is no compromise in quality.

Bob Ruck, one of the best classic builders in the business uses a polyester finish on his instruments, so that's why I expressed an interest in the UV curing process. Bob is really productive at 30-35 instruments a year, and getting through the finishing process quickly is probably one of the main reasons he can make so many.

Cheers,

Brian

Dec 11, 08 | 3:06 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Actually the system Bill was referring to, is a low power halogen infrared configuration. The new Halogen fixtures do a great job of speeding dry time for Nitro Lacquer and the Target Water borne lacquer. The commercial systems have a much higher output --- however for a couple of instruments at a time the 1500-watt oscillating Big Box store units work just fine for me. I have not worked out a scientific drying/curing gas off scheduled for nitro or the Target water borne. I am not sure when that will happen since the focus at KMG is tools, fixture, components and kits. I hesitate to make any other assertions at this point since I have no approvals from the tech staffs at any of the coating manufacturers --- I would just hate to have anyone screw something up because they listened to me and failed to follow the recommendations of the product producers.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Dec 11, 08 | 4:02 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Sorry Brian, didn't realize you were at that level of building. Fantastic. Certainly a career move I would love to make.....just not something I think can happen.

Dec 11, 08 | 5:56 pm
Brian Burns

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 5
Hi Ken,

We have all kinds of jokes about how difficult it is too make a living at guitarmaking. My current favorite:

Q: How do you get a guitarmaker off your front porch?

A: Pay him for the pizza.

Cheers,

Brian

Dec 12, 08 | 7:20 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
LMAO, I like it, Brian. Especially since we are ordering it for the kids tonite, you delivering?

Just looked at your site.....wish you were in chicago, I would definitely sign up for classes. I do most of what you teach, but not necessarily well, and all self taught. it would be a treat and a real improvement to learn from those who know what they are doing.

Dec 12, 08 | 12:18 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Just hit the mahogany neck of my OOO with some leftover Target High Solids Pore Filler. I didn't like the stuff last time I used it, and swore I would never use it again. But I had some kicking around, so I thought I would try one more time. No go!

Time to go back to Pore O Pac. John, you mentioned that water based lacquer will work fine over Pore O Pac as long as I seal prior to shooting the lacquer. My seal coat last time was simply some diluted lacquer. That won't be good enough?

Ken

Jan 13, 09 | 5:14 pm



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