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Rosettes and CA Adhesive
Author
Post
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 558
Crappy weather in Michigan so time to start working on my OM. I recessed the soundboard for the rosette this afternoon and am now trying to figure out the best way to glue it in.

I have a 1/2" rosette of elm burl that will be lined on each side with BWB-abalone-BWB. I've lined everything up and have a nice fit. My thinking is to start with the outside and glue a bwb perfling in place then glue a silicone filler strip followed by another bwb. Then I would do the same beginning with the inner most bwb followed by a silicone filler strip and another bwb perfling. Once all these were in place and dried, I would glue in my burl.

All my inlay pieces are different thicknesses or I would glue the bwb perflings that directly line each of side of the burl to the burl prior to gluing the burl in. So the steps outlined above seem like they will work.

My main question is can I use CA adhesive near my red spruce top? I believe Ken Cierp mentioned to me once that he has seen yellowing or brightening of the soundboard where CA came in contact with it. Maybe I have answered my own question. Why risk it? I'll just use titebond.

Thanks anyway!

Ken

Sep 13, 08 | 10:40 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Sounds like a real nice rosette --

You can use CA on the rosette if you bathe all of the channels you've cut in shellac first. Two applications of shellac will protect the endgrain on the walls of your grooves from absorbing the spruce-yellowing CA.

Michael Bashkin ( http://www.bashkinguitars.com/ ) showed me how he first puts two coats of clear unwaxed shellac in the grooves (faintly shows in top photo), places his rosette pieces (for his sectioned rosettes), and then just squirts a lot of thin CA on the rosette (third picture) It dries in about two minutes and he runs it through his thickness sander and voil -- perfect rosette with no yellowing. Hand sanding would yield the same result. The rosette being placed in the pictures below is done just like the finished one featured on his home page. Italian spruce top.

=> =>


Sep 13, 08 | 11:10 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Thanks for the response, Bill. Looks like a pretty good approach. I didn't have any shellac here, so I just ended up using titebond. My burl veneer is only about 3/64" thick. I normally use veneer or contact adhesive when gluing veneers to avoid the shrinkage that happens with aliphatic glues on these thin veneers. But I had heard not to use veneer glues on a guitar. As soon as the titebond was applied to the veneer it started to curl. I think I got it glued in okay, but CA would have been a whole lot easier. I'm letting everything cure while I watch my alma mater thump UCLA, then I'll head back down, pull out the filler strips, and epoxy in the abalone.

No nice thickness sander here. I'll be hand sanding with a bar.

Ken

Sep 13, 08 | 1:09 pm
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
Did you ever notice it takes more fingers and hands to do this than you have LOL.. Nice rosette. I like to see wooded ones. Burls and spalts make great ones.
john hall

Sep 13, 08 | 5:08 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
You should have seen me this afternoon. I didn't have any small stickpins, so I used xacto blades. I probably had over two dozen of them stuck in at one point.

I hope it turns out well. If it does, I'll post a picture.

Sep 13, 08 | 5:33 pm
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
When I need more hands and fingers than I have , I find masking tape to help. I love to see the creativity of people. One of the neatest and unique guitars I saw had turquoise as the rosette and top perfling.
It made for the most interesting appearance.
john hall

Sep 14, 08 | 4:27 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Turquise is becoming very popular. I have seen it used as very very thin purfling instead of the white, very cool look, and very subtle.

Sep 14, 08 | 9:24 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
John, for future reference, can I use some diluted water based lacquer instead of shellac? I'm guessing anything that seals the wood will work. I have had good success with the Target Coatings water based lacquer and as I would be using that to finish, seems using it would make most sense, assuming it would work as well as shellac.

Thanks,

Ken

Sep 16, 08 | 7:38 am
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
When in doubt , experiment . take a piece of scrap spruce and try it. To be honest , i personally went back with Duco or Weldwood. The only deviation is when I use wood rosettes. There I use elmers.
Once installed and I run the top through the sander in 30 minutes
john

Sep 16, 08 | 9:06 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
The water in the Target products will puff up and distort your rosette channel/s -- not good. The sealer needs to be solvent based.

Ken

Sep 16, 08 | 9:49 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Yeah, you're right Ken Cierp. I presume

I decided last night to remove the figured elm in my rosette. It was just too thin and cured fairly bumpy. I wasn't sure I could level it without sanding through some portion of it. So rather than risk it, I spent a half hour and pulled it out. This time around, I plan on backing my veneer with some 1/32" ply prior to cutting the ring. Also think I will attach the veneer to the plywood using something other than wood glue. This should give me a nice flat ring I can then simply glue into the groove between my abalone and perfling.

I thought of doing this originally but changed my mind as I was able to flatten the burl veneer pretty well prior to cutting out the circle. I may have still been okay had I not used aliphatic resin to glue it in. As soon as that glue hit the thin veneer, any hopes of keeping it flat vanished.

Live and learn.

Ken

Sep 17, 08 | 5:33 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Ken Cierp, I never finished my thought:

I presume that my waterbased lacquer will work fine over solvent based shellac.

Ken

Sep 17, 08 | 5:46 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
No Problem, that's one of the good qualities of shellac -- its sticks to anything and anything sticks to it -- as a matterof fact there are classic builders that seal all their bracing as well the top and back plates with shellac prior to gluing -- same reason they do not want the water based glue to distort the glue joint or the bracing.

Ken

Sep 17, 08 | 6:10 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Finally got the rosette finished up and thought I would post a link to a photo. I am quite pleased with how it turned out. The elm burl should go nice with the south east asian rosewood rims and back.

I need to finish sand the top, apply a coat of shellac or USL, then I can move on to something else. Man, my pace makes a snail look fast!!

Ken


Oct 04, 08 | 2:41 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Very nice! I'm looking forward to the finished guitar so we can see how all of the elements look together.

Oct 04, 08 | 5:55 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Yeah Dennis, me too! Having the rosette done has me anxious to get the body together. Unfortunately I am traveling with work much of this coming week and next.

I hope I am not overdoing the abalone. My binding is figured maple with abalone perfling on the top. I was going to outline the fretboard on the soundboard as well, but I have talked myself out of that. This is only a 000 size, and I don't want it to look too gaudy.

Oct 04, 08 | 7:44 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Looks gorgeous so far!

Oct 04, 08 | 8:13 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Ken, I think that sounds like a good plan. I agree that outlining the fretboard might be a bit over-the-top. But having the top purfling match the rosette will tie everything together nicely. What kind of wood are the Back/Sides?

Oct 04, 08 | 8:32 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Dennis, the back/sides are southeast asian rosewood. I wanted more of an orangish brown and tried to get some madagascar rosewood, but I just couldn't find any. I found the southeast asian tonewoods at LMI, and it is comparable to the madagascar in many respects.

I drove to Elderly Instruments in Lansing several months ago to look at guitars and get ideas for the next build. I saw a guitar in madagascar rosewood and thought it was drop dead gorgeous. If I could ever stumble across some of that wood, I'd buy it for a future guitar.

The burl rosette is something I had seen in other guitars. I have quite a few burl veneers lying around, so I decided to put one to use.

Oct 05, 08 | 6:33 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Hey Ken, I think LMI has it....

Oct 05, 08 | 3:38 pm



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