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Tale of woe . . .
Author
Post
Terry

Total Topics: 41
Total Posts: 221
Greetings . . .

Sorry Freeman, I didn't intend to post my whining and sniveling about my tale of woe on your 12 string posting . . . lost my head for a minute . .

But here's one for ya'all . . . this time in a better venue.

I built my own neck for my scratch guitar from maple and oak laminated.

I purchased my fret board from Stewmac. I installed a hotrod two way truss.

I glued it with titebond exactly following the instructions that came with the hot rod and Stewmac's instructions for neck assembly including the use of rubber bands for clamping. My neck came out exactly flat. After a few weeks of thinking about it, I tried the hot rod to supply a bit of relief.

The fret board separated from the neck at the body end.

The glue I used was over a year old, closer to two. Can glue lose it's bonding ability over time?

I'm thinking of using Titebond Liquid Hide Glue for the re-glue.

Any thoughts, suggestions, and sympathy/empathy (maybe a kleenex to wipe my tears) will be much appreciated.

Terry


Jan 30, 08 | 6:01 pm
Terry


Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 15 By the way, very nice job on the 12. I'd like to build one those too!

Terry


Jan 30, 08 | 6:04 pm



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Jan 30, 08 | 4:09 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
Yes, glue can definitely lose strength as it gets older. One or two years old is pretty darn old for a bottle of glue :-) LMI says that their Instrument Maker's white glue has a shelf life of about six months.

Be sure to get all of the old glue off the neck and fretboard before you try re-gluing it. Get some fresh glue and you should be fine. Titebond Liquid Hide glue does not have a very good reputation in the luthier industry, so you might want to consider something else. The LMI white glue is very good. I know some folks use epoxy to attach a fretboard, but I'm not sure what the favorite brand is.

Jan 30, 08 | 9:19 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
(ORiginally posted in response to you first post on Freeman's 12-string thread)

Terry -- you should start a new thread for this one!

Glue does indeed lose its ability to bond over time. White and yellow wood glue in particular. I don't know the chemical reason why, but I know they do. The Titebond liquid Hide Glue has been said by some luthiers not to have enough bonding power over time; I don't think I would use it for a fretboard-to-neck joint where the truss rod is designed to exert pressure -- as you have demonstrated in this unfortunate situation.

Hot hide glue or new white or yellow glue would do it. LMI's white glue is good when fresh (lss than 6 months old at room temp; maybe 9 months if stored in a fridge.) Just make sure your bonding surfaces are presenting brand new wood to the joint; any old glue left behind will spoil the bond again.

Good luck!


Jan 31, 08 | 5:00 am
Terry

Total Topics: 41
Total Posts: 220
Sorry about the faux paux concerning threads:-<

But thanks for the suggestions . . . I bought some Titebond II . . . sounds like a reasonable choice, I guess, now that it's new glue.

Thanks again

Jan 31, 08 | 5:24 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Sorry to hear about your troubles, Terry. I would stay away from the Titebond Liquid Hot Hide Glue. It has chemicals in it that keep it liquid at room temperatures, which means it will never harden to the degree true hot hide glue does, which will invite creeping and strength issues to a guitar that already has them. Many of the other luthiers on other sites have strongly recommended against it. It is fine for use on cabinets and furniture where string tension is a non issue, but I would go with either fresh white glue or titebond, or true hot hide glue. Good luck with the repair, let us know how it works.

Jan 31, 08 | 5:51 am
SteveCourtright

Total Topics: 1
Total Posts: 81
Epoxy is what many folks use for this joint so you are not introducing water into the neck. Rick Turner claims that sometimes using a water based glue on the neck/board join can cause the neck to warp.

Jan 31, 08 | 6:21 am
000lover

Total Topics: 71
Total Posts: 330
I have been storing my titebond inside because I thought it may get too cold out in the garage. But I guess if you can extend the life on it by keeping it in the fridge than maybe I should move it to the garage. OR is this only true for LMI white glue?

Jan 31, 08 | 9:20 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
The trick with most water-solvent glues is that you can usually extend the shelf life by keeping them cool. HOWEVER, you will ruin the whole bottle if it freezes.

I wish the glues that we use were available in smaller quantities. I just bought another bottle of the LMI glue because my original bottle is too old for me to feel safe about using it. But I only used about 20% of the glue :-( I guess that is another arguement for hot hide glue - you can make up just enough to do the job.

Jan 31, 08 | 9:25 am
Terry

Total Topics: 41
Total Posts: 220
Ken . . .

Uh-oh . . .that stuff you said about the liquid hide glue means my problems may just beginning. I used it for my bracing and rim work. Ooops :-(


Jan 31, 08 | 11:31 am
Terry

Total Topics: 41
Total Posts: 220
I considered gorilla glue for the neck, but I'm concerned about the extensive foaming inside where the hotrod works . . .

Jan 31, 08 | 11:35 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Terry -- Gorilla glue is not for any part of guitars: Its expansion is disastrous for a guitar.

Jan 31, 08 | 12:27 pm
Terry

Total Topics: 41
Total Posts: 220
Yeah thanks Bill, I realized that too after re-reading the label . . . that would not be good at all.

I went all over town this after noon looking for some real hide glue, you know the stuff you mix'n heat . . . None at home Depot or any of the other home center type stores, or lumber yards' or even places who know what a Luthier is. . . not all of them do . . . The only place that carried any was Woodcraft and they were out! Amazing! and this is not a tiny town, there are several hundredthousand people around here, Eugene Oregon. Oh well, there's always mail order. Who's a good source for the hot hide glue? I'd like to deal with people who support the forum here . . .

Thanks again

Jan 31, 08 | 4:25 pm
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
LMI would be a good source:

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Adhesives&NameProdHeader=Granular+Hide+Glue

Jan 31, 08 | 6:23 pm
jhowell

Total Topics: 37
Total Posts: 676
Here is a place whre you can get hide glue at about 50% of LMII's price:
(It all comes from the same company in North America)

https://www.oldemill.com/~oldemill/store/advanced_search_result.php?osCsid=5a0908722f4d5cfa27b13a187c739595&keywords=Hide+glue&osCsid=5a0908722f4d5cfa27b13a187c739595&x=0&y=0

Feb 01, 08 | 3:35 pm
jhowell

Total Topics: 37
Total Posts: 676
I found something at my local Ace Hardware yesterday. System III epoxy makes 'repair kits' mostly for the fiberglass boating crowd. They also make kits to replace the epoxy. Six sets of pre-measured packets of epoxy and hardener. No need for a gram scale and no need to worry if the catalyst will go off. One packet will do a fretboard to a neck, maybe two.

Feb 03, 08 | 7:11 am
Dennis Weatherly

Total Topics: 73
Total Posts: 651
System III is good stuff. I've used their products on several projects in the past when I was doing lots of model airplane work. As long as the viscocity is reasonable then it should work fine. When using epoxy to laminate two pieces, be sure to scrape off the excess glue. You want the parts being joined to have enough glue to wet out the joint, but not so much that you get a thick glue line or lots of squeeze out. When gluing balsa wood skins onto styrofoam wing cores, I used to use an old credit card to scrape off as much glue as possible. You want the wood to look "wet", but without any obvious puddles of glue left.

Feb 03, 08 | 12:06 pm



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