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New guy with a question
Author
Post
gregks

Total Topics: 1
Total Posts: 1
Hi all. I have been lurking around here and a couple of other sites off and on for the better part of two years reading and learning from all of you. During that time I've bought a kit from LMI, and been gathering up a mold, go bar deck, tools, clamps, more clamps, and books (by the way Bill Cory, your book is very good).

The kit has been stored in my humidity controlled basement shop.

I'm finally ready to start the process of building and take off the tape applied by LMI on the bent EIR sides and find a split on one of the lower bouts that starts at the end of the side and travels about 4 inches or so before terminating.

I was hoping there was going to be enough extra material that would be cut off at the tailblock to get me beyond the split but I'm thinking there will be about an inch or more of split in the side after the side is cut.

Can the split be filled with epoxy or CA and what would be the chances of it continuing to split at a later date? The thought occurs to me to plead my case with LMI but I've had the kit over two years at this point.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks

Greg

Jan 22, 08 | 6:20 pm
damian

Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 19
If you study the LMI website you'll find they can occasionally do custom orders, like sides without a back and vice versa.

Asking LMI to honour the warrantee on wood after 2 years is streching the friendship. However I would not be at all surprised if they would do you a deal on a replacement part. I suggest you write to them and explain the situation. You might find they can do you a replacment side for not too much money. Won't match of course, so a pair of ribs might be in order.

I have found them extremely obliging.

Jan 22, 08 | 8:37 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
If they won't cut you a deal for a replacement, I would fill it with hide glue or fresh white glue....they are repairable glues, meaning if you don't like the way it looked, you can steam it open and try again.

Sometimes, CA can leave bubbles, though this is early enough that they will be sanded out.

If you don't have hide glue, check Frets.com for an alternative. I built a whole guitar out of Knox plain unflavored gelatin used as an alternative to hide glue. THe guitar was a very heavy electric, and is solid as a rock, shows no signs of letting go, even at the scarf joint on the neck, which it hangs by every day all day. Hide glue and gelatin are both made from scraping the hides of animals, one is from a cow, another is from a pig. The gelatin may actually form a stronger bond than hide glue, but is also a little more difficult to steam off than hide glue, though it does come off. It also dries compeltely invisible once sanded. If there is any gap left in your crack, it may look like a sap line in the wood.

Epoxy is not going to flow into the crack like other thinner glues can.

Chances are, you will be cutting about an inch off the crack to trim it flush when gluing the tail block on. The tail block will also support another 1.5" or so, so you will really only have about an inch to an inch and a half of crack that is un supported by anything. I see no reason not to add some additional bracing material, i.e. the popsicle braces, or even a very thin sheet of balsa or some other light weight material. Soak the one side in glue, and make sure it is thin enough to match the curvature of the area you are gluing, and make sure the grain is perpendicular to the sides.

Provided the crack looks alright when repaired, you should have absolutely no further problems throughout the building process, or in the future life of the guitar.

Jan 23, 08 | 12:12 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
If they replace the sides and don't ask for the others back, don't get rid of them, email me.

Jan 23, 08 | 12:14 am
Ted

Total Topics: 22
Total Posts: 158
Haha very subtle Ken.

Greg - How the heck have you managed to sit on your hands for two years!?! That is amazing stamina - I tear the kits open and start playing with the bits on day one.

I know the emotion you are going through - my first crack broke my heart, I thought it was ruined. It was a lot easier to hide than I thought.

We'll all tell you - your first one will not be a masterpiece, it will certainly have flaws. To starve yourself of the experience over a little crack is insane. I say make a start with what you have or get another side from LMI, just don't waste more time on research and waiting. You'll be kicking yourself a month from now wondering why you never started.

Jan 23, 08 | 1:54 am
Ted

Total Topics: 22
Total Posts: 158
I forgot my point. Check out the crack repair on my [http://tedsguitar.blogspot.com/] blog [/url].

You can do it too.

Jan 23, 08 | 1:56 am
gregks

Total Topics: 1
Total Posts: 1
Thanks for all the input. Ted, generally I do just dive into this stuff and I asked myself the same question! My only excuse is I've been catching up around the house. Thanks for the link to your blog. I'll check it out.

I'm going to give Chris at LMI a call and see if there is any kind of deal and no, I won't push him at it at all.

Short of that, I'll try the repair with white glue. I don't have a glue pot. I've got a bunch of Titebond yellow around. Does anyone know if the Titebond white they sell at Lowe's is anywhere like the LMI white?

I'm looking forward to hanging around here.

Jan 23, 08 | 4:57 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
I don't have a glue pot either. I have one of those cheap hot pots from walgreens for 4 bucks. I got a bunch of the disposable clear pink mini party cups, clip it to the side of the hot pot, fill the pot with water, and keep it on the lowest setting. Works perfectly for either hide glue or the substitute.

When using white glue or titebond, make sure the guitar and the glue are at room temperature, and the glue has never gotten cold for more than a few minutes. It will not dry clear otherwise, and will leave a white or off-white line and will not hold the crack as well. I haven't seen the white glue from titebond yet.

http://www.titebond.com/download/pdf/ww/GlueGuideTB.pdf

Here is a link to the titebond datasheet that covers all their typical wood glues. I think the one you are talking about is their wood trim and finsih glue, which is not an aliphatic resin. It is slightlly lower in strength, has a reltatively short shelf life, though dries clearer than others. There is a chart in the data sheet that compares them all. Most pro builders use original titebond, that holds for 3600 lbs, whereas the wite glue holds to 3000. I forget, but there were creep or temperature issues with the newer titebond formulations. I get some of my electric wood from Owl Hardwood and Lumber, and one of the guys there used to work for Washburn. He said the only thing they ever used for ANY wood applications was the original titebond formula, and that the others weren't nearly as good, speaking from experience. He has been a valuable resource on the wood side of things.

Personally, I worked with the LMI whiteglue and liked it, though I let it freeze accidentlly, which killed the bottle pretty much. Since then, I have used titebond, which I find takes longer to set up, but can still dry very well in a half hour if not over applied. I think, for things like putting the top and the back on, which require a lot of time getting clamps and rubberbands set up, I would go with titebond, and white glue or hide glue anywhere else. Thats just the speed I work at though, and everyone is a little different.

Jan 23, 08 | 1:29 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
ACE hardware has the white Titebond Trim adhesive -- I use it sparingly, it not very strong. I talked to the company tech and its designed not to run and therefore has very little water --- that in turn means it dries before it pentrates into the wood pores.

Ken

www.kennethmichaelguitars.com

Jan 23, 08 | 6:02 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Where do you use it? Bindings or rosette channels/inlays? I can't really think of any other part of the guitar off the top of my head where the structural strength and absorption into the wood would not be required. Just curious.

Jan 23, 08 | 11:52 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
I only use it to make black filler paste -- ebony dust and glue. I suppose the logic behind the product is that mitered moldings and trim are butted at angles and the glue will be applied directly on the end grain, so its sucked into the wood right now! Plus nails are usually used to hold the joint together.

Ken

Jan 24, 08 | 2:09 am



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