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Getting excited!! - Router bit question
Author
Post
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 97
Hi Guys,

well I have glued my top on, trimed my excess, and as I type, the back is drying to the sides. What is great now is that the guitar I dreamed of is starting to take shape. (see pic)



(the fret board, bridge and neck are just lying there. Looks great doesn't it)


So my next step is binding and purfling.

I am going to use the herringbone purfling (bold-LMI) and the white binding that came from Martin.

Now the purfling width is 5/32" or 0.15625". The binding thickness is 1/16" or 0.0625"


I would assume that I would first use the binding router bit of 0.06" ??????

then use a purfling bit that goes to 0.15625" + 0.0625" = 0.21875"


But when I look at the router kits from stewmac, they do not offer any bearing over 0.2"

LMI offeres a 0.22" bearing


Bill, it looks like you have used the bold herringbone purfling with similar binding, looks great BTW,

Can I ask what size bearings you used to cut those channels?


Thinking about fitting the neck before binding, but of course I am anxious to do the binding and still have anxiety about fitting the neck.

"Life is short.....Listen close"

Hos D18


Nov 03, 07 | 3:59 pm
davidmor

Total Topics: 34
Total Posts: 567
Actually you want to do the perfling route first. That way the bearing will still have enough wood on the side to ride on again for the binding cut. If you cut the binding first, you run the risk of the bearing dropping into that channel and messing up the perfling ledge width.

The stewmac bearings also have .012" additional built into them for the glue. I don't think LMI adds that into their measurements.


My Blog

Nov 03, 07 | 7:26 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Very cool shape, I am quite anxious to hear how she sounds (as are you).

Fitting the neck is not a bad idea, as long as you are prepared to make adjustments after the fact. You will sand a bit of material off the whole guitar between binding and finish sanding, so things can change, but you can at least get yourself close this way.

Nov 03, 07 | 8:49 pm
Hugh

Total Topics: 16
Total Posts: 309
That is a nice shape, is it a kit?

Nov 03, 07 | 9:51 pm
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 96
yes, it is a Martin Jumbo Kit, but I made my own top from an LMI bearclaw unserviced pair of bookmatched tonewood.

The ellipse is a "builder's ellipse-4 " i carved with an exacto knife.

my earlier thread is "Selmer Django guitar kits" and has the history of the project.

Stewmac says to route the binding first, but Cumpiano says to do the perfling first.

I think you are right davidmor. perfling first.

I guess I should use the 0.220" (LMII) bearing for the perfling, then the 0.06" for the binding. Since the total distance from the guitar edge to the inside of the purfling is 0.21875 " then the 0.012" would be included.

of course I will practice on scrap. I just want to avoid buying the whole routing kit, when I only need 2 bits.

My wife has expressed interest in a mandolin, so maybe I buy the whole kit. little pricey though.



Nov 04, 07 | 5:46 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
It's worth it if you are going to do more than one instrument. you will always make changes to style and content of the guitar, why limit yourself with the binding? In the grand scheme of things, this will be one of your cheaper investments.

Nov 04, 07 | 7:31 am
forestcaver

Total Topics: 6
Total Posts: 41
An alternative is to build a router attachment to keep a straight cut bit a set distance away (I was too much of a poor student to afford all the lovely bits the SM advertise, much as I might drool over them !).

Andy

Nov 06, 07 | 9:33 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Andy=-- you would/could describe my router guide exactly that way. It's cheap, too.

Bill Cory


Nov 06, 07 | 10:01 am
davidmor

Total Topics: 34
Total Posts: 567
Lol, I was just about to recommend Bill's router guide as it is exactly what you are describing Andy.

My Blog

Nov 06, 07 | 10:07 am
forestcaver

Total Topics: 6
Total Posts: 41
Absolutely true :-)
Mine was very similar to Bill's - it was copied (and changed a bit) from the Williams book (which I didn't find useful for anything else BTW :-) )...

Some pictures of the attachment

Andy

Ps. Hi Bill (and everyone else) - I haven't posted anything on the forum for a while - I've been dabbling with the dark side (electric) and been building effects pedals as well as planning a valve amp build :-), although I have been stock piling wood for another acoustic in the near future....

Nov 06, 07 | 11:10 am
damian

Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 19
2 things.

First that is one of the nicest of those designes I've seen. I really like the pistol grip on the side.

Second, I may know nothing about guitar building but I have been building valve amps for many years. If I can be of assistance let me know.

Nov 06, 07 | 2:12 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
If you are going to build your own binding attachment, again, I sugest that you read this:

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/understandingbindingchannels.html

The reason Bill's guide works is because it does not have the "big foot" (base) that rests on the back of the guitar --- the base can only rest on the edge and average the cut, just having the base tapered is not enough. Bill's guide and the KMG guide are about the same in operation the difference being the bit configuration.

Ken

www.kennethmichaelguitars.com

Nov 06, 07 | 2:56 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Yep, I agree with Ken: Those guides with a big foot really don't do the job very well. Part of their problem, to my way of thinking, is that if they have a steep angle, then they are riding on a dangerously sloped edge, and can easily slip off. Too much attention must be focused on keeping the sloped base on the edge! But, if they have too shallow an angle, they rise when they encounter the radiused back, especially very near the neck heel. That makes the channel at that point too shallow.

Below is a photo looking at the base of my guide's "edge guide." A blue line is drawn on the tape. (I use binding tape because it is slick.) This blue line is actually where the guide rides on the edge, and it is also actually where the bit cuts. As Ken says, the little edge guide averages out any rise and fall laterally within about a 3-inch width, so the channel that is cut is always exactly the right depth. And, though my guide is basically designed to use Stewmac's or LMI's roller bearing bits, I imagine it would work with straight bits: It would just be a little more involved getting it perfectly aligned. (Ken's guide is designed for use with straight bits, I think, *or* roller bits ... right Ken?)

Different strokes ... They both work very well; depends on the user which one is preferred.

... Bill


Nov 06, 07 | 4:07 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
I prefer and use the down cutting spiral bits. The KMG table and attachment use a 1/4" They tend to compress and cut rather than lift and cut. The lift and cut action leaves a little fuzz on the edge that needs to be sanded or better trimmed off with a razor. There was a point I was shipping the attachment with a shear cutting straight bit -- but the DC spiral works better.

Ken


Nov 06, 07 | 4:36 pm
forestcaver

Total Topics: 6
Total Posts: 41
I agree with the foot-size point. I made mine with a very steep slope and a small flat lip (probably about the same size as Bill's), so that it is only the small flat section that is in contact with the edge and the bevel is there to allow clearance of the back bowl (if that makes sense)...

Andy

Nov 07, 07 | 6:27 am
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 96
wow,

I am so glad I posted. as always ........thanks guys.

I was thinking all of this as I positioned my router (power off) with the flush bit around the edges, just see have true the cut would be and found that at every point the edges aint square and nor consistent.

I thought "how on earth do these guys do this" I thought maybe it was a something you just have to learn how to handle......."it is all in the wrist" sort of thing.

Now Bill's jig finally makes complete sense to me, I thought before it was just an extra measure to minimize the "oops" factor.

I am gonna have to come up with something similar. I don't think it can be done right without it.

BTW, just got finished reading "Clapton's Guitar", if you have not read it, it is the best motivator ever. A must for any guitar builder.

Also saw Wayne Henderson at the Nat. Folk Fest a few weeks ago. The great thing was a train went by during his set, the tracks in Richmond,VA pass right over the stage, and he keep right on playing and changed tempo slightly to the clacking of the train wheels.
whack..whack.. whack

can't get no better than that. see pic of train and wayne.







Nov 08, 07 | 2:21 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Man, I would love to see that guy in person. He's the only really expert luthier I know of who is also a really expert player at that level.

Nov 08, 07 | 2:27 pm
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 96
Hi Bill,

you should see him when you can, it is awe inspiring to watch him do it, and looks like he is watching tv when he plays, like he is thinking about something completely different. No effort.

There is not an ounce of concentration on his face.

I have an old bootleg I taped off the radio during a live show in VA from the early 90's. if I can find it I will make you a copy if you like. I have been looking for it since the festival. it will turn up soon.


Nov 08, 07 | 4:00 pm
davidmor

Total Topics: 34
Total Posts: 567
I would love to visit Rugby to see his guitar festival and maybe visit his shop some time. Sounds like a family vacation in the making!

Nov 08, 07 | 4:18 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Amen to that, Dave! I've wanted to do that for the last two years and couldn't make it. Maybe the whole Kit Guitar crew should stage a Gathering there next June? How 'bout it guys? Maybe we could get Wayne to let us buy him dinner and tell us guitar building stories.

John -- that would be great; if you find that tape, let me know! I got his "Rugby" CD (through Allen St John's website) where he plays live for just a guy with a (very good) recorder, and it's just great.

Bill

Nov 09, 07 | 4:34 am
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 96
Amen is right. that is a great idea.

I told my wife and she reminded me that our 2nd child will be 1 month old at that point....and she added..... "don't even think about it"

so most likely not 08, but the next year is a must.

Just got "Made and Played" tonight in the mail. sounds great!. I will find that tape this weekend.

Oh yeah, I saw today on You tube, there is a video of Doc when he picked up his guitar at Wayne's shop, which was not too long ago. Doc plays a Chet tune.

just search under wayne henderson and it will be the first video that pops up.

now on to my binding!!! what a great weekend this will be.

Nov 09, 07 | 3:20 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Have fun, John!

Nov 09, 07 | 3:38 pm
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 96
Well, this weekend didn't go as planned.

My sewer line in my house clogged outside the house because my water main broke 2 weeks ago and disturbed the dirt around the sewer line causing it to shift and disconnect. (Thats the theory)

Anyhoo,

I finally started my binding and did the whole back before routing the top. What I wanted was a complete pictue of the process, before routing the top, where the prulfing will go.

see update pics
<img src="http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/62/562/1/43/39/2382143390067550812YgyDxx_th.jpg" alt="2007-12-nov-guitar 029">


<img src="http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/62/562/1/43/39/2382143390067550812YgyDxx_th.jpg" alt="2007-12-nov-guitar 029">

Nov 13, 07 | 7:02 pm
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 96
How do you post those beautiful big pictures??


Nov 13, 07 | 7:11 pm
davidmor

Total Topics: 34
Total Posts: 567
I use photobucket for my pictures and they make it easy. Use the [img] tag to post the pictures. Hmmmm, let's see if this works......


Yep, it worked.

Nov 14, 07 | 4:19 am
davidmor

Total Topics: 34
Total Posts: 567
Oh to answer your question here is what I put in without the = in the boxes:

[=img]http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/29299/2382143390067550812S425x425Q85.jpg[=/img]

Nov 14, 07 | 4:23 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
The posting method, as shown below the "Post Your Response" box, is :



Equal Signs are not necessary.

Here's your shot again, using the above tags with your link:



The binding looks real good -- any problems at all with the router guide?

Bill


Nov 14, 07 | 5:57 am
davidmor

Total Topics: 34
Total Posts: 567
I said to do it without the = sign. I put those in there so it would display the actual text. I tried using quotes and it wouldn't display the text.

Nov 14, 07 | 9:14 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Yeah -- that's why I made it into a graphic as above. Didn't understand what you said about the equal sign above. That's the problem -- if it's not explained just right, nobody gets it right.

The quotes are not always required, but if they are not included, the link doesn't always work. Best to include them.

If the question comes up again, probably best to refer people to the HOW TO POST A PHOTO thread that's a sticky in the General Discussion forum. No confusion that way.

Nov 14, 07 | 9:28 am
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 96
Hi Guys

My router guide was just a slim wedge (3" wide) attached to the foot of the laminate trimmer. I shaped it to align the spindle perpendicular to the edge. no guide along the edge other than the bearing.

One thing i noticed was that you only need the guide above the upper bout. up to that apex, th top is perpendicular the sides, atleast enough for a clean binding.

after the upper bout towards the neck, i used the wedge which I could rotate the trimmer a little to change the pitch as I rounded the corner.

I practiced a bunch before i did it. some really small and hidable mistakes along the back edge.

what is the saying "it aint a mistake if you can't fix it" or "it aint a mistake if you can hide it and it does not affect the sound or lifetime"

I left the top piece of the binding next to the cutaway loose ( see pic) so i could mate it after the rest was set. I still have not done it.

my sewer line was broken by the guys that fixed my water line and they had to come to dig up the whole yard again and replace the sewer line for free beacuse of it. just before thanksgiving too with relatives coming!!!.

but they replaced the whole sewer line, now I can get back to my binding.


life is full of interuptions, but i did start reading "Guitar;An american life" by Tim brookes last week. another must.


happy TG

Hos

Nov 21, 07 | 7:41 pm
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 96
well,

the top binding and purfling are done. All in all I am happy, there are a few minor cosmetic mistakes, but tolerable.

I hope pic comes out large:



Nov 28, 07 | 3:14 pm
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 96
lets try again


Nov 28, 07 | 3:15 pm
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 96
and 1 more time


Nov 28, 07 | 3:19 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Looks pretty good to me, John! That sure is a nice looking top. I like that tilted oval, too!

Bill


Nov 29, 07 | 5:34 am
HosD18

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 96
I am so timid about finishing this thing.

I am going to think some more.

I was thinking french polish on top and lacquer on the sides, neck and back.
following Bogdonovich's book.

The french polish technique sounds like it is fun to apply. LMI has a great tutorial on the subject.

Feb 01, 08 | 8:42 pm



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